Shaun’s DNA Surprise

This transcript was generated automatically. Its accuracy may vary.

Shaun's Initial Reflections on Responsibility and Unexpected Connections

Well, I created this situation.

You have this feeling of like, what did I do?

Did I do something wrong or what?

How are they, you know, are they OK?

Or like, what's this like for them on their side of it?

You know, here I'm having all my emotions, but you know, they might look at me and say, you know, this is a miracle or they might be like, why did you do this to me?

You know, So I mean, I think that kind of emotion and like, it is so easy.

And I know you know this and most people listening know this.

It's so easy to find people.

All I had to do was use the a bit of sleuth work and immediately I could find that second kid and see pictures of them.

And it's like, I don't even need the DNA test.

You just see those pictures and I see my, I see myself, I see my siblings, I see my family in these people.

And then you see them with their family.

And, and you just have these feelings of like there's feelings of loss, there's feelings of like incredible, like joy.

You know, it's just like, it's a miracle, but at the same time, you don't know how everyone's going to react to it and they might not have real positive feelings around it.

So that's the part where you're like, really have to put some thought into it.

Like how do I handle, Do I reach out to them or not?

You know, what's appropriate?

Do I just sit and wait?

Do I act?

There's not a lot of information.

And so immediately you're just like, reaching out, like looking for podcasts like yours, like, how do I figure this out, you know?

Speaker 2

Welcome to DNA Surprises, a podcast that explores the life altering world of unexpected DNA discoveries.

I'm your host, Alexis Oursalt.

This show centers the stories of people who've experienced NP, ES or non paternal events.

In other words, people who've learned that their biological father isn't who they thought he was.

We'll also hear from adoptees, donor conceived people and the families navigating these discoveries.

Get ready to follow the incredible journeys that begin with a simple DNA test.

This is DNA surprises.

Have you ever made a decision without thinking about the long term consequences?

It's a pretty normal human experience right?

Now imagine making a decision and never being faced with the consequences until 20 years later.

In this week's episode, Sean shares how his decision to become a sperm donor in his early 20s carried a gravity he didn't realize until much later.

He reveals how he learned that he is the genetic parent of adult children who may or may not have known that they were donor conceived, how he has connected with them, and how his decision has impacted the people in his life.

He also discusses the joy, grief, and responsibility he feels as a biological parent.

Thank you for sharing your story, Sean.

Speaker 1

My name is Sean.

How Shaun Discovered His Biological Children After Two Decades

I'm 48 years old and I'm from Wisconsin.

It started about four or five years ago.

I had one of my relatives contact me and I'm pretty close to her and she had gotten on 23andMe, she said.

It's really weird.

There's someone there on 23andMe who I'm very closely related to, but they're not responding to me and they must be someone she told me.

I think who it is, is I had a sibling who had a child out of wedlock and I think, I think this could be the child of that child out of wedlock, something like this.

And I knew who she was talking about.

And the story made sense to me.

And I didn't give it any more thought.

I just said, oh, that's, that's interesting.

And then it was about two years ago.

I was at home one night in the evening.

It was like 10:00 PM.

It was dark.

Me and my husband were sitting in the living room and watching TV.

And I check my Facebook messages and I get this message from a second cousin of mine who I know but I'm not close to.

And she says, hey, I hope this is OK, I'm reaching out.

I have a young guy reaching out to me and he said he's looking for his dad.

And supposedly his dad has these characteristics, a little bit of background about how many siblings they have and what their career was.

And it matched me.

And she said, you know, I can introduce you whatever you want me to do.

I said, no, no, it's, it's OK.

I, I can handle this.

I I know exactly what's going on, you know?

Speaker 3

So what was going on?

When I was in my early 20s, I was a sperm donor and I had honestly, and I don't, I hope this is helpful to people who are on the other side of this, you know, who are donor conceived.

But honestly, and I hope this doesn't sound flippant, it, I think it has mostly to do with the age I was when I did the donating.

I didn't think about it for years afterward.

It was maybe 10 or 15 years.

I was watching a movie one night and it was about this adopted daughter and the biological mom, I should say, of this adopted daughter.

And they kept missing each other in life.

And the the biological mom died before the adopted daughter could find her.

And so this, you know, we're talking like 10 years ago from today.

And I was like, it hit me like a ton of bricks.

I was like, Oh my gosh, I like made these kids out here.

I didn't even think about the connection, the biological connection and how it means more than just how you look, but it's like it's part of you, you know.

And so all of a sudden I'm like, I got to educate myself and I got online, what did I do?

You know, I'm like, and like, who's out there, you know, talking about this and how can I learn about what should I do as someone who did this?

So I, I found the donor sibling registry.

I looked to see if I had any kids who had reached out or I guess they would have been parents of kids at the time cuz the kids would have been like 1215 years old.

No one had looked for my donor number or reached out and said hey we're looking for this guy.

No kids had been reported.

So honestly I just thought I just, I guess my sperm wasn't good.

Take me back to when you decided to donate, what was your thought process?

Were you like, oh, I'm going to help some families have children?

Was your thought like, I'm going to make a little money?

What was the thought process when you decided to donate?

Well, I was 22, so that's more than half a lifetime ago now in the past.

And so I've pieced it together from some people I talked to at the time, but I think it was both.

I had some credit card debt and they paid you $40 every time you went in and made a donation at the time back in 2000, 2001.

But I also told some that actually that same close person who found this close relative on 23andMe, she's my aunt, but we're kind of more like siblings really, because she we're close in age.

And she talked about how I'd wanted to help and you know, how I, I thought I, you know, could pass along good genes or something like that.

I don't even remember saying any of that.

Some of this you just have to remember.

It's like a lot of stories when you're in high school or college, you get together with friends or your family and you piece it all back together, and that's what I really had.

To do so, you see this movie and it kind of resurfaces or maybe just surfaces these thoughts about, oh, I did this thing and there's actual maybe implications to it that I hadn't thought about.

But then it doesn't really take you anywhere when you try to find maybe what came from your donation.

It took eight, I think it took roughly 810 years for my, you know, who I consider my biological son when he reached out to me.

Shaun's Turmoil and Joy Upon First Contact with His Son

I mean, sometimes I just call him my son because it's just easier because he is.

But I didn't raise him.

I've met him now.

And so that's why I feel comfortable calling him my biological son.

And, you know, it was really just my my son.

But you don't have that close relationship like you do with someone growing up.

But but yeah, I, it really hit me and I felt like I have a responsibility here that I didn't know I had, that no one had told me that I had a responsibility for, but that all these people were out there talking about sharing their experiences of like emotionally what it's like for them and what they need.

And I'm like, oh, I want to do the right thing.

I want to be there, you know?

And I don't have kids myself.

I'm gay, so I have a husband.

And so obviously we're not making kids, you know?

So yeah, I felt like I had space in my life to to do that.

And I, it was the right thing to do too, but I didn't piece it together.

When my aunt said there's this close relative out there, she created this other story.

She didn't think of it.

She knew I was a sperm donor.

I didn't think of it until, until my son reached out to a second cousin who he found on this DNA testing website and said, hey, I'm looking for my dad.

So right away I, she gave me his name.

I wrote to him, he wrote back to me right away.

My first emotions finding out were like my body immediately flushed red.

It was like this combination of excitement and embarrassment.

Like there is a lot of stigma and shame around it, but I was like so happy too.

It was like, it was like a miracle, 'cause I had been thinking about this for eight years, but I didn't dwell on it.

You know, it's just like, I wish there were kids out there, but they're not.

And then when it finally happened, I just knew it was going to be huge because my husband's sitting right next to me.

First I have to tell him he's going to have reactions to this and so is my family.

And I'm really putting myself out there just in this.

I feel like it's the same on your all side, you know, when you're a kid dealing with this situation or a child not you're not a kid, but you know, you're a child of these people who did this on on the side of being on the parent side.

It's very, very scary because I'm like, well, what if they, you know, take one look at me and Google me and see that.

I mean, I ran for state assembly one time.

I was, I'm this political party.

I'm gay.

I'm but I don't know, I'm nothing special either.

I'm just kind of like a everyday person, but they might not like me or that we might not match.

Or you just have all these feelings of like, what if I get rejected, you know?

Yeah.

Did your husband know that you had donated and that this was a possibility, or did you have to back up and tell the whole story?

Well, you know, I, I'm pretty sure I told him when we we got together, it was probably in passing, but he doesn't remember that I told him.

So it's different when you may say maybe you did that and then a kid shows up, you know, very different things, so.

Absolutely.

You definitely had some strong reactions at first.

That was an immediate issue I had to deal with and after 30 minutes.

You said you felt you were happy, but you also felt embarrassed and you kind of said that there was like a, a stigma around it.

Can you talk more about what that stigma is?

Because I feel like nowadays especially it's a little bit more commonplace, like the people use surrogates or, you know, adoption or donor conception, it's become a little bit more normalized.

But at the time, like you felt this stigma.

Can you talk more about that?

Well, I mean, it's the year 2000 when I'm doing this and, and you signed papers and they say it's anonymous and it's feels secretive when you go in there to do it.

As I told people, it confirmed what I felt because there were certain people who are like had this look on their face like, what are you doing?

Like what, what did you do?

Like, that's odd.

And then other people are like, Oh my gosh, that's awesome, you know, and very different reactions you get out of people.

So I feel like it, it's a social thing, you know, So that's, that's where the stigma comes from.

I'd read enough stories to know that all sorts of things could happen, you know, And but what, what was so important to me about this whole situation is like, I didn't want to dwell on the stigma either.

I mean, I'm gay.

I had to deal with that stigma.

I'd, you know, I came out of the closet, I I can groundbreak some, you know, I'm not like I'm not going to hide in a hide in a hole somewhere.

I'm where I have to do the right thing, even if it even if I'll get some pushback from it.

So, so that didn't define how I was going to deal with this, but I knew I would have to deal with that.

I'd have to get through that.

Navigating Awkwardness and Deep Connection with His First Son

What happens next?

You have this information.

There's this person out there.

Are you eager to connect?

Do you take a beat?

Oh, I wrote to him right away.

I just said, hey, this is awesome.

I'm so glad, you know, you reached out and I look forward to, you know, talking to you more.

He said he was it.

It made me chuckle because it was so much like me, what I would probably do if I was in his shoes, you know, right away.

He's like, well, so do you have this many siblings in this career?

Like, is this you?

And so he was very direct, you know, and I can be very direct to him.

I basically think he was like, you know, I don't want to beat her out in the Bush.

Just tell me if you're my, if you're my biological dad or not.

We talked a little bit back and forth.

He shared with me the evidence he found.

I don't know how he found it.

Some donor profile from the year 2001.

A big part of it at first was like, does your family know?

We asked each other that, you know, So he told me I've known since I was this many years old.

He'd known for a little while.

And I said, yes, my husband knows.

I mean, I didn't say, I just told him.

And he had a strong reaction a little while later.

And we were pretty about it.

But.

But yeah, that was kind of the first part.

But really, I remember that first night.

I felt like it was this weird feeling of like, I'm a new parent, but they're adults and like what?

And I couldn't sleep and I'm laying there awake and I'm probably so like 3 or 4 hours afterwards, like 3:00 AM or something like that.

I'm laying awake and I have this thought of like, Oh my God, that person on 23andMe that my aunt found, that's another kid of mine.

It just that hit me.

So I'm like, not only did I have this one reaching out to me, then I'm like, oh, there's another one out there too.

What was your thought process as that happened?

How are you feeling when you start realizing like there's another one and then right, Maybe there's more beyond that.

It was very heavy, like I felt a huge responsibility on my shoulders.

Yeah, I was, yeah, a little worried, very excited, but worried at the same time.

It was, you know, really that mix is a turmoil of, of emotions.

That was my first thought.

And the next day, you know, I woke up, called my mom, called my dad, my siblings.

I told people what was going on and it was kind of dominating for a little bit.

It was pretty huge.

I was trying to figure out, do I talk to the son who reached out to me?

Like, how do I talk to him?

Do I meet him?

Like what do I do?

You know, I have no idea what you know, I'm just trying to figure out what I how do I handle this and looking for other stories of how people handle it.

You said that you felt a responsibility.

What responsibility did you feel?

Like, how do I handle, do I reach out to them or not?

So you find the other child.

What are your next steps on on either side?

They'll start with the one who reached out to me because it's a little easier, although that there's challenges there too.

Geographically, we're not that far away, like a couple states or so.

So I said, well, you know, I'm going to be sort of in your neck of the woods and I don't know when it was like a couple months or something like that.

If you want to meet up and I'll be kind of over there and I get, well, I'm kind of busy at that time or something like that.

So you know, that's like, that's part of all this.

You know, it's like it goes both ways.

It doesn't just go with sometimes parents rejecting kids.

It's it can go the other way too, of course.

And I don't know if that's rejection.

It's just like life, you know, not things don't always work out.

People can't always drop everything, but you just have the thoughts to creep in of like, well, what if, you know, he saw me and is like, no, I'm good.

But I, I just kind of when, when I, you have all those moments of doubts.

I did.

But if I had a good moment and my mom's always giving me the advice, don't let the good thought get away.

If you have a good thought, just just go for it.

And so when those moments came up again, I just had that try to build up some courage and say, Hey, I'm going to be in your neck of the woods again, this time for work.

And I think the second time it worked.

And so we met and he asked if his mom could come along and I and I got to meet him in person.

So we just went out to a restaurant and yeah, that was, I mean, I'm sure a lot of people know what that's like.

You know you, you meet, you meet that person who you have this connection with and who you see yourself in, but who's a total stranger.

You know that that mix.

Did you feel like you got along quickly?

Was there a a natural feeling to the way that you interacted or did it feel like I don't know you and you don't know me And, you know, I think everybody's experience is a little different.

It was very awkward at first.

I had a hard time like breathing and like swallowing, you know, like that kind of awkwardness right in the beginning.

And I, I went to the bathroom right away.

I, I got there after they did and I came back to the table and I said, well, this is awkward, isn't it?

And I just tried to make it lighten it up a little bit.

And they kind of laughed.

And Yep, that's a little awkward.

But yeah, I, I felt like I was looking at a relative.

I felt like I knew I knew this person, but his mom was sitting there too.

So I'm trying to like, figure out like she'd go OK with me.

Is this OK that we're doing all this?

Because I I knew that she has his husband and that's his dad who raised him, his social dad and so.

We're just asking each other questions, getting to know each other.

She was very proud of him, of course.

And I, I'm kind of a stranger and I like to learn and read a lot and watch a lot of things.

And so I know that if people are adopted, they'll meet their biological parents.

And it's more than just physical looks.

You know, there's all these things that are in common.

So we were talking about just kind of things like that.

I put put my hand out at one point and I said, oh, you know, we should put our hands out.

See how our fingernails look because I've noticed that in relatives, you know, fingernails often times carry a common look and just little things like that.

But I was so proud of him.

You know, just like you can't help it.

It's just like that feeling that I guess parents have that I'd never had before.

Biologically, it's just a connection.

It's just automatic in some way.

That's how it felt for me.

But there was a big sadness to that loss was like they, they did have this closeness between them that I didn't have with them.

And at at some point I was like, I, I want to leave, but I can't leave because this is so special.

But at the same time, I felt kind of like a little left out.

That's what I mean by that turmoil of emotions that I'm sure people on this podcast all feel a lot of people, people listening and you yourself.

And I definitely went through that on on my side.

And so, you know, driving away, I was just like, oh man, you just feel like crying.

He's been so great to me.

He'll send me pictures, you know, like him going on vacations and spending time with friends and just things like that.

We had a second meeting where where he met my mom, you know, so it'd be his biological grandmother and my husband was there.

And then a third meeting, I got to meet his fiance and that just happened and going to be going to his wedding this winter.

That's really cool.

Did he say why it was important to him to find you?

Was it like just medical information?

What?

Why did he want to find you?

I I think it was a lot of things.

It was a combination, you know, like So what you just said, yeah, he was very interested in that.

I filled out a medical information card form and there was some medical issues that he had had that that I I could explain a little bit of just saying, oh, yeah, that runs in the family.

That's true.

Like, I can see how that would happen to you.

And that that was really important to him.

He's a great kid.

He said how thankful he was.

His mom said that, too, you know, that she was thankful that I basically made the sacrifice.

I think she could see it in me sitting there that it was a sacrifice.

I didn't know I was making a sacrifice when I was 22, you know, But you realize that you're older, you know, it really it hits you.

But still at the same time, I mean, it's also such a wonderful gift to me.

So I don't just look at it as a sacrifice.

I'm like, oh, I get to see this person who, you know, now is an adult and is growing up.

And I, I see myself in him in, in some ways, you know, in some really cool ways.

The Heartache of Unresponsive Children and His Husband's Journey

Have you met his dad?

On like video call like this just very.

So yeah, I don't know quite how to handle that, but I'm just going to try to be as friendly and you know.

So you have a pretty good outcome, it sounds like with one of the children, the the one who reached out and was and was seeking you.

I'm curious what happens with the other child.

Yeah, that's, that's a tougher story.

So I, I get a lot of help out of this podcast and, and some others I've listened to, to kind of imagine what's going on because I've never talked to him.

But you know how it is.

You just make mistakes at first.

You just stumble around, how do I do this?

How do I communicate with this person?

I've heard some people they've talked about how they weren't ready to talk to their parents, but it actually was nice to get some notes from them even though they weren't ready it they needed to take their time.

I heard one example of a, a mother who kept reaching out to their son, biological mother to a biological son.

So the mother didn't raise the son and eventually he came out of his quietness around the whole thing and not communicating.

So I've used that sort of as an example.

I think I maybe sent a little too verbose of message at first.

You know, it's going on too long.

I did prepare this like the donor sibling registry has this questionnaire you can fill out like answering questions about yourself or people who are donor conceived just so that they can get to know you a little bit.

So I sent that to not only my son who I know, but the son who's out there, that who's never responded to me.

And on 23andMe you can see if someone's logged in, they have like a one day ago, one week ago, one month ago, something like that.

So I just send the messages and I know they're looking at the messages, you know, I can see it, you know.

But yeah, they've never responded.

And and so that one brings a little little heartache or a little like more worry, you know, 'cause you don't know what's going on.

So in your message did you say I donated and you are my child?

Like did you inform them or were you able to discern if they already knew?

Well, the donor sibling registry, they do have a little guidance on how to handle this.

And so it's more like, hey, I'm not sure if this is a shock to you or not.

And and, you know, please take your time, but I'm I'm here if you want to communicate with me.

It's kind of a little bit more along those lines, more of that tone.

Did you take a 23 andme test and then match with this person as a parent?

Yeah, so after my first son contacted me, yes, right away.

Then I'm like, oh, I got to do the test.

I should have done this a long time ago.

I I just didn't even think of it didn't even occur to me, you know, and here this is just two or three years ago.

So it's just as these stories come out and you learn things that just, you're like, oh, I should have done that, you know, but I didn't.

So yeah, yeah, I just took the test and and yeah, we matched up right away with the son who reached out to me.

And then I matched with the other son who my aunt had matched with for years.

So they never responded to you?

When was the last time you messaged?

Him.

I want to say it was like last Christmas, something like that.

I, I think I try to do it maybe every six to 12 months, you know, just real short little messages.

Hope you're doing well.

Merry Christmas.

From the sleuthing that you did, does he appear to have a relationship with his parents that raised him?

Yeah, this is the hardest part, you know, 'cause it, it feels the most personal.

And, yeah, you look at the pictures and then you see this woman who you have made a child with through this unconventional means.

You know, you're like looking and seeing this.

And then, yeah, you see their dad, too.

It's it's all out there.

I mean, people put so much on social media.

And so, yeah, I don't, I don't know what the situation is.

They might have a great relationship.

They might not.

I just don't know.

Maybe he's upset about this.

Maybe it's his parents who had him spit into a cup and they're reading the messages.

I don't know.

How do I know what, what what happened?

He might not even know.

But I will tell you.

So I've had a third son come up now because, you know, this happens kind of regularly in the donor world where, you know, they, there can be many, of course.

So I just know of three.

So my number is kind of low and reasonable, which is kind of nice.

He took a test and my aunt, who I'm close to, she clicked on the e-mail that says you have new DNA relatives, you know, and, and she saw him and she did the sleuthing right away, found his pictures, you know, it's so easy to find.

And then she's like, oh, look, he looks like us.

And so I did reach out to him and I said, you know, it's really nice to meet you.

And, and just that that kind of line I gave you before about take as much time as you need, you know, and, and he was, you know, he was great.

He wrote back right away.

But you know, just said, you know, really nice to meet you too.

I think there's some inconsistencies with that, with the DNA, so.

SO doesn't believe the test.

Yeah, he doesn't believe the test, right?

And then he got off 23andMe.

That was about that time when 23andMe was going bankrupt and, you know, so, yeah, he's off of there now.

But I mean, I know he is.

I mean, he had his name on there.

You know, it's like, it's so easy to find this stuff out.

So pretty similar story.

I think he's just gonna need time and.

And maybe we'll never, you know, want to talk to me and that's OK it.

But I will say too, it's been really nice to go through this with my son who reached out to me because he wants to meet his siblings.

And so we have been able to share that experience of like, oh, we reached out to them and they're not interested what's going on?

And but he's got his own sibling who is also donor conceived.

And so he can see it from his point of view and, and he's never reached out to his biological father.

So we've been able to connect on on that level, you know, So yeah, they're not wanting to connect with their siblings or, or their parent or biologically, you know.

What are your hopes in terms of connecting with your biological children?

Oh yeah, I would love to, absolutely.

Yeah, There's, there's no doubt for me about that.

I mean, wouldn't it be great if we could just match all the people like me with The Who want that relationship?

Because sometimes you don't get it, you know, it's not a match, you know, one side or the other isn't, isn't ready for that.

It's not the way the world works.

Yeah, I know, I know.

I was thinking to myself that there are so many people out there who would probably be so grateful and to to have their genetic parent want to have a relationship with them.

And you're right, sometimes it just doesn't line.

Up I don't want to, you know, you don't want to get in anyone's business and replace anyone you know, and, and try to supplant anything.

But where there's a need, I just want to be there to, to help fill it, if it makes sense, you know, 'cause as you know, I'm 48 and my ancestry and where I've come from and my family and even my husband and his family, I, it just, you gain this deeper understanding of genetics and, and family and, and what all that means socially, you know, and biologically.

And, and so it just gains so much more meaning as you get older.

And you can't push that on a 23 year old, you know, because they have to come into it in their own.

Like I had to come into it in my own.

So as the years go by, you know, I just want to be there until I'm gone to provide, to provide that as my kids need it.

How is your husband doing with all of this?

We talked about it a lot and after going through that initial like, Oh my God, what did you do?

You know, sort of sort of reaction, You know, it's been very supportive of me and we had to go through it first.

Like, you know, I because there was a little discomfort around it.

Sometimes I would just be messaging my son and wouldn't always share it and he felt left out.

He wanted to be part of it.

Now it's been a couple of few years, you know, he's been part of it more.

You know, he's going to be going to the wedding with me and, and so I think it's just a process of like getting used to it.

And, and yeah, he'd have to speak for himself more, but it but it's but yeah, the initial part of the process was, was challenging because it, it does suck a lot of the oxygen sometimes.

You know, it's there's a lot of drama around this.

Well, and and to your earlier point, you maybe didn't realize the gravity of it until later, right when you got older and realized the importance of family and connection and all of this stuff.

And you know, the weight of it, it's heavier than when you're 21 and thinking, oh, this is just something I'm going to do.

I'm going to help somebody.

I think the marketing around donation to is very light.

It doesn't feel heavy for egg donation or sperm donation and people don't always realize until there's a person out there who is related to them how it is kind of a big deal.

Shaun's Advice for Donors and Hopes for a Stigma-Free Future

Oh yeah, it's a big deal.

And that brings up another important topic.

I, I really wish that the, and I think they're moving in that way, but I, I wish that these donor companies would be more heavily regulated and there was more that had to happen around, you know, telling me when I was that age, you know, like this is the gravity of what you're doing.

Maybe it would have stopped me.

I, I think, you know, in an ideal world, looking back now, it probably would have been better if I would have known the people who I would have donated.

That's I was going to ask is if in light of this, your stance on donor conception has evolved.

It sounds like you would prefer to have been a known donor knowing what you know now.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think that would have been a lot better.

My kids might not have been made if that was the case.

So I don't want to change that.

But I think going forward with all this stigma and the, the shock and the secretiveness, it's, there's so much damage to that clearly.

And so I would don't support that.

And this was a situation where, you know, they're at the time putting up Flyers.

Now it's all online ads.

I, I see some of them because I'm on some Facebook groups for past sperm donors, because, you know, you just put in sperm donors, all of a sudden they're trying to get you to donate sperm and they have all these advertisements, these young guys, you know, you're, you're doing the same thing.

It's just in a more modern way.

I've listened to a lot of people talk who are known donors and I in general, I think that's better.

There's too many kids being made from single people.

That's kind of crazy too.

It's really the donor can see people, they're leading the charge on this.

And yeah, so I'm, I'm just kind of following and supporting them.

I think it's great what they're doing.

What's next?

Are you on the lookout for for more kids?

How are you feeling about it all today?

It's one of those things where the amount of control you have is very limited, you know, and so I, I'm only going to be able to take part in whoever wants to have that relationship or reaches out, you know, whoever's there.

And however I can be there for them, I'm, I'm just going to be, and, and I'm going to go to this wedding and see what that's like.

You know, that's going to be a totally different experience in my life.

How are you moving through some of the emotions that you talked about earlier?

Like it almost sounds like grief in a way, right, For the absence, right, of not having that in your life and having these people out there and sort of that realization hitting you was heavy.

How have you navigated that and how are you feeling about it today?

Yeah, it's a roller coaster, so it depends on the day you're talking.

But it doesn't consume me.

It's part of it.

But there's so much good that's coming out of it, too, that, you know, you just kind of got to, I guess, ride the waves of emotions that that come with this.

And I'm so fortunate to be married and, you know, have a great family.

We've been foster parents.

So we have relationships with those kids.

You just have to, I guess, find other purposes.

You know, I, I thought a lot about being a parent as I've gotten older because being gay, I didn't really have that option as much.

And so, yeah, there's some loss to it, but there's also a lot of freedom to it, you know?

And so you just got to.

There's a lot of positive and negatives and it you can't, there'll always be regrets in life is what I heard someone say one time.

And as I get older, I'm really feeling some of those.

But also, it's such a miracle, too.

There's certain other people in my life who like to inspire me to not try to make it so perfect and just just roll with what is coming at you, you know?

And so I think on my best days, that's what I'm trying to do.

On my worst days, it is sad, you know, that those kids are out there.

And I guess what I feel the worst about is if I caused that hurt, I don't need people to come to me and say thank you, although that feels good.

And that was nice when my son said that to me.

You know, I just kind of really want to be like, I'm sorry if this caused problems for you growing up.

You know, that's what I want.

I want to make sure that message gets across if it caused issues, which I'm assuming there might have been some.

That's really considerate.

I can tell that you've done a lot of research and learning about the donor conceived experience to have so much empathy for their side.

I know we always ask people at the end if people should, you know, tell their kids this stuff.

And for me, it's a little bit of a different situation.

I know the answer people always give.

But for me, it's like, it's hard for me to force that on, you know, those parents.

I mean, it's clear that people who tell their kids early on, they seem to be better adjusted to the whole concept of having a, a biological parent out there somewhere that they don't know, you know, they're just able to incorporate that into, into growing up better.

It's clear that that should be the answer.

It's harder for me to sit here, though, and tell some woman who received my donated sperm 20 or 25 years ago that you got to tell your kid this.

You know, it's really personal for me, you know, like I wish I would so that that kid can deal with it.

But that's awkward for me to tell people that they should, you know, should do that.

But clearly it's so such a good thing.

I, I wish more people would.

And I want the stigma to to go away By the time I die, I'm like, I, I hope it, it's not happening like that anymore.

And that would be my my dream.

What advice would you give to someone who is considering gamete donation today?

I would say take the time to donate to someone or people who you think you can have and more of an ongoing connection with.

So in my case, you know, I at the time there was a lot of stigma around being gay.

There's still some of that, but at the time it was much higher around the year 2000.

But at the time, if someone had been like, hey, you know, there's these lesbians who can't have kids and maybe we should connect you with some people who, you know, your values are kind of maybe matched and you could maybe help help them out.

You know, that would clearly help both sides out.

I know why you wouldn't donate, even want to necessarily have a relationship with that person because you might want to have your own relationship with someone else, you know, so you got to, you just got to be careful and think about like, what's your future spouse going to say someday?

Make sure you're just being thoughtful about that.

And that might stop a lot of people from donating, but at least you really have to think about the mental health of the kids.

You know, that's the most important thing to think about.

And I just would want to slow people down, like put the reins on them a little more.

I, I wish someone had done that for me.

But because there was that stigma for me, I think I remember going into this sperm donor clinic, I think there was like Christian stuff out.

I think there was like a Bible or something.

So I felt very, I didn't want to be asked if I was gay because I didn't want to be told I couldn't do it if I was gay.

And so I, that's what I would encourage people to just maybe think about your values a little bit and try to match that with, with whoever you're you're donating to.

That's a great point.

What advice do you have for someone who has donated and is connecting with or maybe found by their donor conceived children through DNA or otherwise?

Well, a big challenge that you're going to go through is that you're not going to be able to talk to a lot of people who are going through what you're going through.

And so there are some stories out there and try to seek those out, but be careful of not getting freaked out by the sensational stories because there's those out there too.

And people love to, you know, say, Oh my God, that sperm donor was a doctor and had 500 kids.

And like, try to find normal stories and start to learn from those people.

I've talked to a few people now who were sperm donors themselves.

And that has helped me.

I would say try to get your story somewhat out there so that we can Start learning from each other too, because it's you're going to have to be patient.

Please don't reject these kids.

I mean, if someone reaches out to you, you know, educate yourself about what they're going through.

If you have a family with three kids of your own that you raised and these other kids are coming out there and your spouse doesn't like that this happened, you still got a responsibility.

You can't just hide from these people.

It just causes too much damage.

You know, So really try to try to be a good person.

You know, think about all the people you, you made these decisions, You got to live with them.

Because I know there's a lot of people out there who end up rejecting their kids who reached out to them.

And and I just think that's a big mistake.

Sean, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your story.

It's so important for people to hear these different perspectives and I'm so glad that we're hearing now from this side of the donor conceived equation, especially somebody who is so open and willing to share and and have a relationship.

It's just important for people to realize that that can be an outcome and that you have so much empathy and consideration for how these kids are affected.

So thank you and I just wish you the best.

I hope you have a blast at the wedding and who knows what will come from the other two relationships, but I hope it moves in a positive.

Direction.

Thanks for saying that, and keep the stories coming.

They're really important.

Thanks again to Sean for sharing his story.

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