Eric’s DNA Surprise

This transcript was generated automatically. Its accuracy may vary.

Speaker 1

Hi everyone.

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Thanks for being here.

Speaker 2

And you know, I've talked about this with friends, with siblings, therapists, everybody.

It's not my job, right?

I can't say for it's not my thing.

I get that.

I do.

But I also don't like having these weird conversations and walking on egg shells all the time like they they were here not that long ago.

And we generally like when everybody's together, it's fine, we don't have to worry about it.

But inevitably the three of us end up getting left for like 20 minutes or half an hour.

And it it's so painful like this, it's just like, come on, it really sucks.

Awkward moments it.

Really sucks.

Welcome to DNA Surprises, a podcast that delves into the world of unexpected DNA discoveries.

I'm your host, Alexis Ourselt in July 2021.

My life took a surprising turn when I found out that I'm an N P/E person who has experienced a non paternal event.

In other words, my biological father isn't who I thought he was.

Join me as we explore the stories of N P/E's adoptees and donor conceived people and their families.

Get ready to unravel the astonishing journeys that begin with a simple DNA test.

This is DNA surprises, DNA tests and PE donor conception politics.

In this week's episode of DNA Surprises, I'm joined by Eric, who learned that he was donor conceived after taking a 23 Andme test.

He shares why he decided to take the test, why he waited three years before doing anything with his surprising results, and how his discovery impacted his relationship with his parents.

He also shares how he is connected with his newfound siblings and the larger DCP community.

Towards the end of the episode, Eric provides us with a quick history lesson on the origins of donor conception, so be sure to listen.

Thank you Eric for sharing your story.

My name is Eric Silva Brenneman.

I'm 43 years old in the Twin Cities, Minnesota.

Where to begin?

Well, let's just hit it from there, from the DNA surprise.

Then I suppose we can fill in some some back story.

It'll be like doing a movie, right?

We'll do the We'll jump in.

People have to figure out where they're at in the plot and then we can do like the back story.

Exactly perfect.

So I'm a multiethnic individual, identifies Bipoc.

My, my mother is from the amazing and wonderful country of Brazil.

Which means that she's an excuse, the woman of European, indigenous and African ancestry.

My dad, birth certificate dad is European settler, typical Midwestern guy.

The story there, in terms of his that narrative on that side is that they were Swiss German.

As well as Al Sassian, which is you know, depending on what war was happening, sometimes France and sometimes Germany.

And they they actually had really, really well documented genealogy.

Like to the point where I have a photocopy of the on the on the French side, I was the first person that immigrated in like early 1800s.

So they kept everything, and the Brennaman side were a Mennonite family back in like the 18th century.

That as Mennonites, they they were pacifists and if you know your European history, everybody was beating the crap out of everybody at that point.

And they were like, we don't want to do this.

And so consequently they were booted as exiles.

So they started to move around from what is now like that Swiss German area and eventually made their way to Holland.

Met a guy named Penn, as in Pennsylvania, and that's how that story happened.

I sell this with great detail.

Setting it up that none of it's actually connected to me is where we're going, right?

Right.

But they did a hell of a job.

Like in terms of keeping that documentation, I will give them credit.

So 2017, I, you know, I have a wife, have kids and I've always wanted to get into more of understanding, more of what the backgrounds and the actual meaning of what's behind the nationality, right?

Because if you say you're Brazilian, if you say you're America and what does that actually mean, right?

There's more depth there than just the nationality.

And if we break that down even more in terms of.

History and politics and colonialism, we can go in a lot of other directions, but I know you have a time limit here.

So, but the point is though, I wanted to basically have a better idea of you know, what is that Africanness?

What is that indigeneity?

And so my amazing wife and partner bought me a a 23andMe Christmas 2017.

We were in Atlanta, GA at my cousin's place.

Absolutely.

The key point here that I've mentioned before, and I'll say again, my parents were in the room.

When it happened, they were present along with all of a bunch of their family.

Saw me open the gift.

Cool, This will be fun.

I'll spit in the tube, send it out.

Which I did.

Once again, I repeat, my parents were in the room.

Said nothing, said nothing.

Okay.

Did the thing and you know how it is.

It takes like 3 months or whatever.

So it was like March Ish of of 2018.

When the results came back and what was initially really cool and and we should say too for for those that that do have African or Indigenous ancestry, things have been getting a little bit better on these tests.

But you can even see the Eurocentrism within these tests of in terms of the specificity, right.

It's like so for example.

I'll just use me as an example.

So I got my.

My African W African stuff, which is really cool and it's not a lot.

I should be clear.

It's like, you know, 10% combined, but it's still 10%.

That's very dear to me.

And it combines all of what is now the Republic of Congo with Angola, which is fucking huge like that is a big landmass, you know what I'm saying?

It's like okay somewhere between this enormous land.

We're my ancestors, right?

Yeah.

And then on the European side, it's like.

Yeah, we're going to 0 in to Holland.

Here's the state, here's the county, here's the village.

This is probably the address, you know what I'm saying?

Like get the right to the thing.

That was fun.

It was cool to see that and and to get a little bit more on the indigenous side.

I actually had it flipped in my head.

Alexis.

I thought I was more native Brazilian than African.

It was the opposite.

So that was kind of cool to see.

And the other one that was hitting.

So again, I mentioned the French, German and Swiss.

None of that was on there, however, with that historical narrative that was so well detailed.

Holland was a part of the story.

It just was like the jumping off point of that family's leaving and immigrating to the United States, to Pennsylvania with Mr. Pen Guy.

So I saw the Dutch hit and it hit hard to hit like, you know, over a third, like 40 something percent 45, something like that.

I was like, oh okay, what I mean.

You know how it is.

Are you trying to So you attributed.

Yeah because you try to make it make sense.

So you 100% OK, Dutch, that's my dad.

That's my dad side right there.

OK.

100% because because it conveniently fit the narrative, right?

You've heard this before.

You make it.

Make sense?

Exactly.

Brains are silly, yes.

And and kind of left it at that for a little while you know got got what I needed and was done and then.

It didn't take long.

Like a matter of days, really.

The inbox started popping, right?

People are contacting me.

What's this all about?

Interesting.

And you know you've heard this story before, so obviously I'm.

I'm curious who's messaging me.

I don't recognize any of these names.

Who are these people?

And to the person's credit, didn't didn't drop everything all at once, right?

Very respectful.

But she came at it was just like, oh, hey, I see.

I see we're related.

You you have any idea?

How or why?

Kind of a thing.

I'm like, no, I don't know who you are.

How are we possibly related?

And this, of course, then spirals into learning that she is my half sister.

Does she disclose it to you?

She did.

She says we are related, OK.

And did she know that she was donor conceived?

Yep.

All right.

And I know you haven't gotten to that part yet, but I'm just curious.

So.

We're into it, so she tells you we are siblings because.

And again, like, it was nice of her not to just dump it all on me on me immediately to at least slowly kind of work to it.

But having said that by like the second message, it was very much like, you know, drowning in the ocean a lot.

What did you think?

How are you feeling when you started putting these pieces together?

I I woof.

Out of it, completely disassociated.

I think is probably the big word, just nothing made sense.

Nothing made sense.

Outside of myself it was I was numb.

I was really numb.

And I I needed some time and I I was trying to be cool and and still interact with her.

But I'm also just like, you know, I I need a day or two.

What did she share about herself with you?

She let me know a little bit about her background, where she was born.

What she knew of the process and the situation, how many of us there are that we know of.

I had hit with connected with three others, so a total of four at that moment.

And you know, fast forwarding, I'm jumping through time a little bit, but they had already established a group which obviously I'm not part of.

So, so her so her message to you said I'm donor conceived, we are siblings and there are others Okay.

So she she within the group and and at this point this is 2018, you know the numbers are still moving up.

We're still putting things together.

But of the however many there were at that time, she was designated to be kind of the ambassador, as it were.

Okay Okay.

And so you know, I I'm lucky that I have a amazing wife and partner and and family to support me and but it.

It got to the point where I, you know, I talked to her and learned more information and I'm I'm still very much like 1 foot in one world, 1 foot in the other.

Like I I it's not quite denial, but it doesn't still make sense to me that that my parents would keep something like this from me, that would lie to me in this kind of a way, you know what I'm saying?

And I ended up basically I kind of shut down Alexis is what happened.

Did you Did you reach out to your parents?

Well, first I took three years, three years to confront your parents.

Because, I mean, I'm a parent.

Like I got life, I'm a musician, I have all these other things.

And I'm just like, I don't know how to fit this in.

I felt super isolated and alone at that moment, you know?

I I didn't know about any of the groups.

I didn't know about any of the social media stuff at that point.

I'm just like this.

This just ain't it.

I can't.

I can't do this right now.

So did you, were you talking to your sister or anything?

Or were you just like, completely just shut that part off?

A little bit.

A little bit, but not a lot because I knew the more that I ruminated and the more that I was in on it like it was, you know, it creeps into life and and and starts to kind of become an obsession of of sorts, you know?

OK, wow.

Three years.

That is, yes, remarkable.

So you just tried not to think about it, like and just moved on with your life.

What changed after three years?

So 20, let's see.

So we get to like 2020-2021 is kind of where everything kinds kind of pops.

And you know I talked with this with like my therapist and even professors now too.

And it's like I got hit by three shocks kind of all at the same time and and one of my professors just like any one of those things would be.

More than enough reason to be seeking therapy and working on things.

But they all just like, you know, I have I have some martial arts and fighting experience so I, I parallel it.

The metaphor would be like I got a jab across in an uppercut like all together and I'm just like on the ground and I don't know where I'm at.

So those those three things were obviously the pandemic hitting in 2020 and the isolation.

I'm a pretty extroverted social guy and like.

I kind of prepped myself for a few months and I was not prepared for year two years plus whatever it was.

And it really, really messed with my with my head, with my psyche in a lot of ways.

Still, I'm I'm getting close to back to where I once was.

But I'm, I'm not going to lie and say that I'm 100% like it.

It fucked me pretty good, messed me up.

And then we had a little thing here, the Twin Cities called the Minneapolis uprising.

I don't know if you remember that, but after Mr. George Floyd's lynching by MPD, which happened, it's within biking distance of where I live is very close in my neighborhood, essentially extended neighborhood.

And so we were out and we were, you know, being difficult, I suppose, for state authorities and state actors, but we were also.

Doing what needed to be done in that moment.

And it wasn't necessarily the stress of being out.

Like I'm pretty politically engaged and politically minded activist type individual.

Brad left politics for long, long time.

Like, this is not my first rodeo to say the least, but I think I mentioned that just because.

People think, Oh yeah, it was the stress of the lockdowns and and and all the violence from protesters.

And it was like, no, I had nothing to do with that.

It was occupation, Alexis.

I had.

I had Humvees rolling down my street.

I had a Blackhawk helicopter on top of my house.

I'm trying to put my children to sleep.

You know what I'm saying?

That is what was stressing me out.

And I knew that in the back of my head, obviously.

I knew, you know, the Army wasn't going to, like, bomb our house.

But that's hard to explain to kids, and it's hard to like.

Not think about as well that, you know, yes, it's not Gaza.

Yes, it's not northern Syria.

But we were getting messages of solidarity from a lot of those places that are under occupation at that point.

We're going to get, we're getting a taste of it, you know what I'm saying?

And so that was stressful.

And that was kind of messing with me too.

So that's one, that's two.

And then so that was kind of the breaking point where I was like, I need to talk to somebody.

And so I found a therapist.

As we started, we're just working through these two things where I kind of just mentioned kind of off the cuff without even thinking much about it, about this DNA thing.

And she was very astute, very astute.

And she's just like, wait, wait, let's go back to that kind of a big deal.

Kind of a big deal and it quickly became the focus.

So that's 123.

When you started really unpacking what the DNA Surprise meant for you, what did you discover?

What were kind of the first things that happened for you once you started looking at that?

Yeah, you know, she asked a really good question and she said, I mean, I don't want you to answer this right away.

It took a few sessions.

But she's like, I want you to think about, think about, is this something that you can live with just letting go and not knowing?

And if the answer is yes, that's great.

We'll move on.

But the answer is no.

We still have a lot of work to do.

You know, they like that though because she let you define it for yourself did as opposed to telling you, wait a second, this is huge because for some it's not, right.

Some people are like, yeah, OK and they move on, but so I'm assuming you decided this was something.

Yeah, and I mean, I think about that as well, like eventually when I'm doing my own practice, like it was a good approach and something I might.

Bring in as well.

And I I think it was at least one or two more before I even came with a definitive answer because I was still like I don't know like what what's this going to do you know this is this is I'm holding a grenade basically.

What's going to happen here.

But yeah, you're right.

Well, I wanted clarity and wanted answers.

Want to know what was going on?

And she's like, OK, great, well, let's get to work.

And she was really instrumental in helping me.

You go through different scenarios with my parents because that's.

What you were kind of alluded to it.

That was like the big thing that hasn't happened yet or at that point hadn't happened yet.

How are we going to approach them, talk to them?

And she got me really well prepared.

I will say I was tough.

This was, I'm fast forwarding out to 2021.

It was summer picking my grapes.

Remember we're harvesting.

So yeah, August or something. 2021.

Hardest conversation like I've ever had with anyone in general.

Can you take us through that?

How did that go?

Yeah, you know, I we timed it again, My amazing partner.

We worked it out where she's like, gotta go get some groceries.

Bye.

Yeah, kids.

And look, that space, yeah.

So I just let them know.

They obviously knew that I had taken the test, cuz as I mentioned, they were in the room and so I kind of told them this is what happened.

I met this person.

She says this can we get a little clarity here, right.

Can can you at least confirm or deny is is going to be a keyword in a bit.

But yeah, I was just trying to get some information right, like, what does this mean?

And actually there was there was silence.

And my dad looks, he turns and looks and he gives my mom this look like, you know, the jig's up, basically.

Didn't say a word.

Didn't have to like.

I knew where there was like, OK, there's that's confirmation.

That's confirmation.

What did they say?

Did your dad take the lead?

Did your mom?

Yes.

Speak up.

Yes, my, my, my dad was, you know, he was obviously sad and hurt and confirmed it.

And he actually showed, you know, some some baseline remorse, which was, which was nice.

He's like, I thought many times about telling you.

Wanted to tell you And then just like, yeah, I had fertility issues.

The swimmers weren't swimming as well.

So we went, went to a place and did the thing.

And my mom at this point was she was just very stoic and she wasn't.

She wasn't like fighting what was being said.

But she wasn't having a really hard time and and kept saying, well, I just forgot.

I forgot.

I kept forgot.

Oh, like she just forgot that they had done that.

And in her mind, Yep, you were your father's biological son and just forgot.

Just forgot, OK?

And then it became the kind of this push pull between with her especially of giving me little bits and pieces of the truth that actually happened, but then immediately pulling back and denying, well, you trust.

Can you can you even trust this thing?

What?

What is what are these these tests?

They're not real.

Da da da da, not real.

So that that'll become a ongoing theme.

It was, yeah, it was.

It was ridiculous because I'm just like, well, you can't just say that yes, this happened and then start to pull back.

It's not how this works.

Yeah, I'm kind of.

I'm curious what what the thought.

I mean I'm.

I assume it.

There's some shame.

Massive shame.

Yeah, yeah.

And denial is is very strong.

And I don't know your story, but I know in some cases with donor conception, they would mix the sperm and so there was some plausible deniability at some point.

Yeah, and I'm not sure like I I haven't even got that much out of them up even up until present.

Whether it was that or it was like the direct injection as it were, I'm not sure I will ever get that.

So who knows.

But it it became became very difficult, specifically with my mom.

Over time because she really didn't want to talk about this anymore.

And then it became a thing of we have to tell my my race sister, I I have a sister.

Well, two things there.

A, we got to tell her and then B like, what the hell is is she also DCP or what?

And my dad was actually really quick to respond.

No, she's not.

It's like, oh, and it is she older or younger than you?

She's younger.

She's younger, OK, But for whatever reason, you know, the swimmer started swimming again and and there she is.

It's like, OK, that's fine, That's that is what it is.

But she still deserves to know, right?

We can't.

We can't just hold this right.

My mom about your family.

Immediately shut it down, Alexis.

She's like, absolutely not.

Not telling her okay why?

That was my next question.

Why?

Why not?

Doesn't need to know.

You know, it's like, wow, but very, very on the attack and very, you know, we talk about narratives, right?

And I think there's a lot to be said, especially in her case.

And this is speculation to be clear to you and the listeners.

But we're dealing with.

And a brown immigrant woman that came to this country in the 60s, and I think there's a lot there that she hasn't even directly confronted and worked through tied to all of this as well.

There's lots of layers, and I don't even try to even attempt to psychoanalyze my mom because that would just be an absolute nightmare.

But.

Deep.

There's a lot of deep stuff there to to be said, not not just even having have gone through this process as an immigrant, but then the other other layers of race and everything.

So it it it kind of was left there, just kind of like okay, this did happen.

Thank you for the bare minimum confirmation and not really any kind of a apology.

My dad like I said gave a somewhat of apology.

But you know I have a have a teenager and sometimes the the teen apology is a thing.

And like when when I listen to with my mom like kind of apologized to me is like my teenager does a better teen apology than whatever that thing was.

I'm sorry you took it that way.

Or yeah, the non apology 100%.

So did you decide to tell your sister anyway, or?

Two things happened from this thing, from this, this meeting, right?

Number one was I immediately, like the following day or a couple days after they left, I got in touch with the one sister that had reached out to me and I was just like, let me in the group, let's go, I want to meet everybody.

And so there I was.

So now, although I was one of the originals from 2018.

Because I had my sabbatical of three years, we talked about processing time.

Correct.

A bunch of people like came in.

So I was actually one of the newbies at that point in 2021, actually getting into it.

So I was in in our little merry band of pirates, or however you want to call it, we, we are the, we are The Magnificent Seven siblings.

I would have been #7 at that point.

We knew there were, at the very least. 11 including my If you include my raised sister, it'd be a total grand total of 12 or I would have been the 12th, so 11 plus me.

And then that includes 2 of gamete profiteer donor guys raised kids as well.

So you know that all comes from just.

Hanging and learning and and we start flowing, right.

We still trying to build relationships and talk to one another and we do our little chat groups and it's cool.

It's weird.

It's it's, you know, it's strange to be like connecting with your siblings in your late 30s and 40s and whatever.

But you know, this is the way the world is right now, especially with all.

With with DNA surprises.

This is how it works.

We're gonna throw the we're gonna throw the the slogan in there.

The trademark.

So then the other thing #2 then was what to do about my sister, my race sister, right.

And I wanted to tell her I really did.

And we had a conversation because I wanted to tell my children as well at this point, because because they see me disappear when I go on these like.

Chat groups with all the new crew, the new siblings and just like, what the hell is dad doing?

We're white.

White.

Who's he talking to?

What's going on?

They have a right to know.

I should tell them.

My my wife and I, we talked about how we want to do this and and we can kind of came to the inclusion that like we can't tell the kids until my other my race sister knows.

Because if we do that, what are we doing?

We're perpetuating more generational trauma and giving them another fucking secret from their chia.

We can't do that.

So had to put that on the back burner for a while.

But then I had to like start to pressure my parents to like get it together to do something.

And once again it fell on my dad who who again to his credit was being cool and I think 3, maybe four months passed and goes around Thanksgiving holiday.

I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, because they were together.

And then he dropped it and let her know, and she called me.

Was very supportive.

It was just weird out by the whole thing.

Kind of felt bad for both sides, you know, She was just like, this is feel bad for you.

I feel bad for them.

That's fair.

I mean, it's a lot I understand.

But at least it was out there.

So, you know, again, props to my dad.

So literally like that that same day like I got off that call.

Dinner was set.

Sat down, told the kids at dinner, and what was their reaction 2.

Different reactions, like the youngest thought it was great.

She's just like, so I get like massive Christmas presents at this point right from all these people.

I'm like, well I don't know good good way to look at it.

But I I cannot confirm that sure she has gotten some.

I will say that the oldest was a little bit trickier because because you know he's he's at that point, he was a preteen.

And he's got a much more established identity and he was, he was super good into his German language and German roots, you know, very good in the German language.

And he still has that through my through my wife's side.

But he, you know, part of his narrative is that he got it from both sides and now that's not the case all of a sudden.

So it was kind of fun to him, too.

Yeah, yeah, He was kind of bumed.

But I was like I told him, you don't.

This doesn't have to change your your pursuit this is this is one of your passions.

This is like absolutely keep keep up with the language and he has he's great at it.

We're we're multilingual family anyway.

Portuguese, Spanish, English.

I speak a little Japanese Guadani, Italian.

It is French it's just you know Tower Bible over here.

Yeah, and and and my German isn't great.

Like I can read it and kind of work through it, but.

Man, he crushes.

And so I didn't want him to lose that.

And I think that's important to note.

The effects that these DNA surprises have are beyond the person, the NVE, the DCP, the LDA who experienced it.

Yeah, it's also the children and their children and so on and spouses and partners and everyone.

You referenced the what some people refer to as their donor as the gamete profiter.

Is that what you've heard?

Just Profiteer, Yeah.

Profiteer, Yeah.

So I'm curious about that.

What is?

What is or is there a relationship between you and your genetic biological father?

It's 00.

Absolutely nothing.

Have you identified him?

We know him, we know who he is.

The the group had an idea and had done a lot of the work before I showed up, but then we really like.

Put all the pieces together once I was in there.

We know who he is.

You know I I had a lot of pent up anger issues towards him for a solid year and I I think I've worked through a lot of that.

It's still not great.

Like I, I, I I have issues with him less about doing what he did and more the way he treats his family because what's happened since.

Was moving through, but we have a, we have a rebel auntie basically a Chia who was basically the one that gave us all of our medical information and medical history and she's mostly in contact with the with one sister that the first reached out that we started the whole thing with.

But you know, after a solid year of all these chats and everything happened like, you know, the, the, the, the sister reached out and she's like she kind of wants to like meet everybody and hang out.

Like, all right, let's do it.

Bring her in.

And so we did.

So we, we've had a couple chats now with, with Auntie.

She's cool.

She's absolutely badass.

Do you all live in the same area or are?

You we are now coast to coast, coast to coast, California to Pennsylvania.

So, so one of the things we learned, we learned a lot, but I actually have a genetic.

Relative I have 1/2 sister Alexis that lives here in the Twin Cities metro area that doesn't know that I exist that's that's Profiteer's daughter one of them and so on one of our chats me and my one of my Bros like you know I'm not super hacker guy neither is he but you put two of us together we can do stuff and within like 10 or 15 minutes we had an address.

And I because I had an idea, you know, like any large city metro area, these are big places.

We probably never run into each other.

It's a place where I run.

It's a place where I bike.

It's not that far away.

I could probably be at her house in 15 minutes on my bike.

Wow.

Have you reached out to her?

I have not and I'll tell you why I think.

I think just because you haven't gone through this and and knowing the the trauma and the mindfuckery that kind of comes from it.

I don't want to put that on someone.

I'm I'm I'm happy to be a source of information if she wants to.

If she finds me and comes to me, I'll absolutely give her whatever she wants and you know, see, see if we can even build something from there.

But I don't want to show up at her door and like, drop that bomb.

Nah.

Now, so you mentioned this anger that you had towards the the Profiteer right column.

So you said the way he treats his family.

What is that?

So there's two things.

Number one, obviously you've you've heard this before too like this.

We're talking about late 70s into like the mid 80s of all these massive air quotes donations happening.

And so he did it, I think, I think they were, you know, probably told my parents he was a doctor.

He was not at that point he was doing a pharmacy degree I think.

I think he is a medical doctor now but was not at the time and.

You know, these, these these guys now, like the whole thing is we need, we need to protect our family.

Like I don't want my wife to know.

I don't want my kids to know.

Yeah, you've heard it before and as have as have I, as have we all.

But now that his sister is a part of our lives and has reached out to us and he knows that he's cut her out so he's no longer see that's where I'm going.

So she's no longer part of the family.

At least that family she's disconnected from.

Her nieces, the one of whom you know, lives here not too far away and and really can't tell me a lot because she's like, I don't know, I haven't seen her talk to her in three or four years, however long it's been.

That's messed up.

That's why I mostly have issues.

It's like, OK, you're going to be that kind of a that kind of an asshole.

And how is the relationship going with your siblings?

Have you?

You've met.

Great question.

I know you've met a sister because I've seen pictures on social media, so.

I'm so proud of them.

I mean, on one hand it's really hard, right, Because like we talked about it, you're you're getting into all what what should have been, you know, decades ago having having met these people that that you're related to.

And so you have to weigh those expectations.

It's really important.

You can't just expect, you know, we're going to be hanging out every single day.

Not even mention the fact that we're spread out across the entire country.

But you know I'll I'll, I'll, I'll tie it into the story.

Because fast forwarding to like March of 2022, I had a really big blow up with my mom over all of this and it just went it went bad and all the ways you can imagine and I let him know, the sibling group know and then when my my one sister the the closest one to me, not that far away.

Iowa, we'll just, I can call them by their names.

The first one's California.

This is Iowa.

Iowa reaches out and she's just like, let's let's make this real, you know, let's meet, you know you're hurting.

I want to be there for you.

I go okay right on.

And it took a little while took another month or two.

But in May of 2022, you know, I went down, spent the weekend, met I was ended up being a 2 for one.

So I met her, spent a lot of time with her.

And then we have a brother in Nebraska as well that came up.

So I got to meet the two of them.

And then you know, since then the distance factor is kind of a key thing.

Like it's just not that she's not that far.

So we can, you know, get in the car and be in her backyard in like a decent amount of time.

So we've seen each other for working on our fifth or sixth time now like it's becoming.

Normalized to the point that she came up for my daughter's birthday, her niece in June, which was huge and I'll never forget that, like that was incredibly memorable moment and she can't have children.

And for her, and it's interesting because she, you know, she'd be the first one to tell you she was even exploring the idea of donor conception too.

So kind of full circle, but for her to just from nowhere also gain a niece and a nephew like she takes it.

Very seriously.

And my kids love her as I do.

That's amazing.

So you really have like a family relationship, like a sibling relationship.

Really tight.

And you know I I would want something similar with the other ones as well.

It's just it's just harder because we got it takes planning and I'm saying you gotta plan up flight you gotta plan where you're gonna stay all that thing.

It's just it's it's a convenience factor where.

She's not as far.

And we still need the plan.

You know, I mean, like, I don't, I don't have anybody in this place, but just get there faster.

And I think it's, I mean, I think it's hard for people who aren't in our positions to understand.

But I think one of the biggest comparisons I can probably make is right.

We always talk about how as adults it's hard to make friends because it takes so much energy and we have our lives and you have to plan.

And now imagine trying to catch up and tried with a family relationship with someone that you haven't known.

Did you find with your siblings that you had commonality?

You know, there's always that nature nurture conversation.

There's there's little bits and pieces, but yeah, yeah, like my bro in in Pennsylvania with both football heads, soccer guys.

So we don't, you know, the World Cup this past winter, nonstop, back and forth.

Yeah, we had to pull out of the sibling group chat because I was just like guys honestly, like OK, it's too much.

The one odd one thing are any of your siblings by POC because you identify that way, so all of your siblings are white.

Has that been any part of this journey for you?

Has that brought up anything?

A little, yeah.

In fact that that same one that I mentioned Pennsylvania, you you know we talked about it a little bit.

He was, you know, he was just kind of curious.

He's like, how how does this make you feel?

I'm like, well, I don't, I don't feel bad or anything, but it's it's an obvious thing when we're together and when we're like little heads on a on a screen that I kind of stick out and some people claim that we all have similar features.

And sometimes I see it and sometimes I don't, because it's it's just this glaring thing where like, I'm the brown face that doesn't really look like anybody else.

But you know what it has done is just kind of by chance back in whenever that was 2021.

Like I'm not even on Facebook anymore.

But at that point I'd found the We are donor conceived group and by chance found this amazing person that was looking for other people of color that might be donor conceived.

And for a while, I think it was just the two of us.

And then we found a few more and then.

They're like, maybe we should start our own little thing.

And I'm like, I think we should absolutely start our own little thing, yeah.

And so we did, yeah, it is, it is a different journey and that other Ness, even within your own sibling group.

Yep, Yep.

So that led to the creation of the yeah through through donor conceived community, we started our Bipoc DCP group and that's been wonderful like they are.

They are fam.

It's it's it's just weird with all like the post during and wherever we are now and in the pandemic these things they blend together right and they continue.

And so these people that I don't personally know but much like yourself like we're we're hanging we're building a relationship like that group like they are tight family like they I I really, really care for those people because they've been that they've been there for me and I've been there for them through a lot of things and yeah.

And we'll be sure to add the link to these resources in the show.

Yeah, yeah, daughterconceivedcommunity.org.

Yeah, definitely.

There's lots of groups that just that one just happened to be the one that spoke to me and us and that we kind of built.

And it's been fun to see it grow.

I mean, for a long time it was a tight knit crew of like 3 or 4 people and it's still not that big as you can probably imagine for a number of reasons, but it's doubled.

So like, like we pop up now like 8-9, ten people.

It's just like, oh, look at all these people.

But to go from feeling like there's no one who understands you to, even if it's a dozen people, even if it's one other person, it helps.

It definitely helps.

It's huge because now because because now we're not just talking about like all the DCP stuff, we're talking about race.

We're talking about class and how those intersect and.

Yeah, stuff.

So this is a beautiful segue.

Because when you reached out to me, one of the things that you really wanted to talk about was this eugenics component, this political.

Component to donor conception and I would love to give you, you know, some space to talk about that because before you, before you reached out to me, I honestly, I'm learning so much about donor conception and the infertility industry.

Since my DNA surprise, and I'm sure a lot of people that are listening are not familiar with some of the things that you're about to share.

So, yeah, You share more about this?

Thank you.

I mean, the simplest way to put it is you can't talk about the fertility in history without talking about eugenics and white supremacy.

It's baked in.

And I don't mean to apply like, oh, Eric thinks everybody there is a racist.

I didn't say that.

What I'm saying is historically the institution itself is based in these things, much like the the United States or I'll pick on my mom's country of Brazil.

These are colonial states based in white supremacy, indigenous genocide and African slavery, right.

That's the fact you can't deny those things.

And to that point we can jump into these things.

So this still just a little.

I'm going to try and go chronologically here and I'll actually start by you.

You gave me a great setup already, Alexis, because you already said it.

Nature versus nurture.

You said it and we say it all the time.

I've been guilty of saying it.

It's like I'm in the psych department, like people throw it around all the time.

Do you have any idea where that comes from?

No, but I think I'm about to regret saying it.

It's grossly.

Yeah, we're gonna talk about a lot of shitty people.

So this is from a man named Sir Francis Galton.

I don't know if you know that name. 18221912 So Galton it really his biggest claim to fame is that he rode the coattails of his older cousin, a guy named Charles Darwin.

Yeah, now Darwin.

We do know him and and Darwin himself.

Not great when it comes to race either.

A racist for sure.

He get.

He gets a little bit better towards the end.

But back to his little cousin here Galton.

So he is considered like the father of eugenics.

Like he it kind of existed, but he gave it a name and kind of proselytized it and like took it out to the world or whatever.

Nature versus nurture is his thing.

Coins that.

He also starts this idea of it's kind of funny because he calls it Social Darwinism, even though his cousin is doing nothing with it.

He just uses his name.

Like I said, he's he's just riding his coattails.

Riding the coattails?

Yeah, completely.

And you can imagine what that is.

He's basically leading to scientific racism.

This is the guy that eventually comes up with the idea that African people have smaller brains because they have smaller heads and deserve to be oppressed.

Like this is his whole thing and and and he believes in that strict hierarchy as you can imagine.

Like with Darwinism, social Darwinism, eugenics.

He wants like the perfect beings.

And obviously none of those are going to be anybody that looks like you or I.

Alexis, here's a quote this this is him and it's it's full of double negative because it's like, you know 19th century English guy talking but I think he'll pick it up.

So he says quote there exists A sentiment for the most part quite unreasonable against the gradual extinction of an inferior race.

So he's basically saying Genocide's cool.

Yeah, that's, that's got, that's that's your nature versus nurture.

OK, well, I'm gonna strike that for my vocabulary.

I don't think you have to strike it.

It's just you gotta be conscious of it too.

Because I It's important to know where these things come from.

And and that's the difficult thing, right, is that a lot of our foundations of everything honestly start from that place and then.

They evolve not to play on Darwin right there, but you know, it does change.

All right, keep going.

So the next one I got is is Davenport, you know, do you know the name Charles Davenport?

I don't know that name no.

So he's he's from the US he's 1866 to 1944 and blisters are probably go Eric's gonna talk about the Nazis is like you know what I I'm gonna briefly mention the Nazis just cuz it's so easy.

Like I'm giving you all the build up basically to what what what gets to that point.

So this dude loved him some Galton, like he read, absorbed everything like you know disciple.

But his big thing again from the US, this is directly tied to you and I anyway that identifies as Bipoc and whatever respect that may be he was, everything about his being was against miscegenation.

Absolutely opposed in every single way to ethnic cultural race mixing.

That was his Mont run.

He he actually called it a biological problem.

That's what those are quotes.

And he lobbied Congress in 1924 for the immigration act which actually this ties into you'll you'll remember like a number of Jewish folks that were turned away during like before the actual things were starting to get heated up like that was a part of that act.

So, like, he passed that actual thing to, like, prevent anybody that wasn't basically WASP of entering the country.

And I put it here, he could have been, he could have been pushed aside to history.

And we, we wouldn't even know the name if it weren't for another extremely famous racist that threw lots and lots of money at him, a guy by the name of Andrew Carnegie.

Fully.

Yeah, fully funded by Andrew Carnegie.

Interesting, Okay.

So this kind of leads into like he starts getting into communication too with the Third Reich.

He actually becomes the editor of a German journal in 1935.

I'll just leave that there.

He had no issues with whatever they were doing.

I put in here just around this time 1884.

This is the this is where the first artificial insemination actually happens.

No consent of course from the.

I think it was a Quaker actually.

Yeah, quicker wife and then we'll get Fast forward.

But the, the, the first frozen situation happened in the 50s in Iowa, which is I I only bring that up because like I got fam in Iowa.

I was conceived in Nebraska.

Like these like the world start to combine.

It all kind of comes together and it was livestock, right?

It was it was a dude that had worked with bowls and like protecting and and shipping like his bowl semen was just like you know what?

I think I can do this with people And then the scientists are like these guys.

A lot of these descendants, these eugenicists are like we should look into that Brewer.

We don't talk too much about him.

He he he attempted to be cool with it and like say no, no eugenics and socialism can work and because he was still like a white guy and pretty racist, it just didn't.

And then we get to Mangola finally that that's a name that probably, you know, a lot of people know.

Joseph Mangola 19/11/1979, Liebens born project with the Nazis with the fascists.

Like that was his baby.

You know I think enough said there and this one's kind of personal to me because he he ends up in in South America in the Southern cone.

He ends up in Argentina and he actually dies in Brazil, a free man.

And he and at this whole time he's still performing like terrible experiments on native folks on on black folks.

I mean he's doing horrible, horrible things.

And I and I 53 was the first frozen.

I did put it in here and I just brought it in here just to say in terms of like the lack of diversity within the industry which is kind of where this is kind of leading to and this is 2000s, this is already old data.

They're talking about 70% of the population being European, 80% donors, 12% black only, 5% donors of black or African descent, 12% Latino only 2% donors, Latin X and then Asian 4% of the population and actually a little bit higher, 8% of donors which again 2020 some years old.

These numbers are probably fluctuated a little bit, but it's it's a good indication of of how unequal and inaccessible a lot of options are, especially for people of color.

Regardless of you know, how you identify what your sexual orientation is like, it's it's really hard.

Like my mom didn't have an option, no option whatsoever back.

Yeah, it was, Yeah.

She pretty much only could choose a white donor, which if they wanted to mirror your father, I suppose.

That worked.

They would have anyway, yeah.

Yeah, with the knowledge that you have, I mean, you've you've dived deep into the history of, you know, how we got here with assisted reproduction.

What are your feelings on donor conception personally like you try to take it another hour here girl I know.

I know.

I know it's brought, but like personally, is that, is it something that you support for yourself, for friends, for family?

If somebody came to you and said, I'm thinking about using donor Gammy, what is your personal stance on that?

Yeah, you know, because I have so many, so many friends in the LGBTQ plus community.

Like, I'm absolutely gonna support them.

Of course.

Like they have just as much as right as anyone to be parents, and they're probably better parents than most heteronormative couples, frankly.

So of course it just needs to be done in the correct manner.

You know, look for a known known donor open situation like baseline, like that.

That should happen, right?

No more this anonymity bullshit.

Like that's like the main thing I think we're trying to eradicate right now there.

There's other things as well and and and to be somewhat fair, I don't be too harsh on the industry.

Things have evolved and they have done some good stuff.

You know, the a lot has changed in four decades.

Is it enough?

Not even close.

There's tons of work still yet to be done.

So I'm not if you're if you're asking do I want to end Gammy donation I I don't think so like that I I don't think that really again going back to what I said previously that that's that's going to that's going to directly affect people that want to have a family for legitimate reasons and they may not be able to do it in traditional means and and that's not fair.

Absolutely, yeah.

I just like to ask the question to people who are donor conceived, because I think your voices matter the most, right?

The voices matter the most in this situation.

I actually read a piece like I I was I I used an article last semester of.

I don't have it off the top of my head, but like his whole thesis was just like we need to end the entire industry and do, do, do, do, do and cut this out.

I'm just like and and there are parts of it there.

There was some actually really good logic in there.

I was like, OK, but you're not thinking about what we just talked about like this.

This is if this were to happen, there's going to be a bigger seismic impact that you're not seeing.

Where would you say you are now, just overall on how you feel about yourself, your journey?

How are you emotionally and mentally?

Oh man.

I mean, I feel generally good.

I feel complete.

I'm I'm glad that I can be out and open because I wasn't for for a certain amount of time and and you know what it was meeting my siblings in person changed so much because they're so cool and so wonderful and I'm so proud to have them in my life.

I mean, when I watch my my head mom, she's my head mom.

So I call her she's the chia.

When I watch her with my kids and I get to see the love there and the bonding and just like I'm not going to keep that a secret that's that's beautiful and that's wonderful.

So that has been a gift I think.

I think what's hard is, is still dealing with my parents specifically my mom and trying to get her more just in, in out of the Matrix and in the real world.

It's it's tough.

It's like it's an ongoing battle.

I think she'll get there and then and and I hope.

I hope we can get past it and and get back to a semblance of the way the relationship was before.

It may never be the same again, but we can do better than this.

I hope that for you.

I hope that for you just life is weird, then you gotta be ready for it.

That's, like, so true.

As soon as you think identity is fascinating, and if you would have asked me five years ago that I'm gonna, like, start a counseling program and I'm gonna become a therapist, I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about?

I have any interest in any of that.

I'm.

I'm a musician.

Like, you know, I'm saying like, I I talk football.

I do all these other things.

I'm no interest in that at all.

I like five years later, my entire world is like, flipped on its head.

And so that's the truth.

So be ready.

Be ready for the the psychological judo, because you're probably going to need it regardless if there's a DNA surprise or not.

But if there is one, you're absolutely going to need it.

Absolutely all right.

What advice do you have for parents may be keeping ADNA surprise such as donor conception from their child.

You got to tell absolutely tell age appropriate earlier the better.

You know my my Iowa sister I think was got it got it the best she she learned when she was a toddler three years old.

That's the time I would have taken 18.

You know we're we're passing a lot of legislation right now.

We're moving a lot of interesting things throughout the country and 18 seems to be kind of the the focus and the key and I think that's fine.

I mean again I still think earlier is better but I would have loved 18.

There's not a there's not a perfect time.

But finding out in your late 30s into your 40s and 50s, it's it's the impact hits so much harder and it's still going to suck At eight team and you're still you're you're, you know, you got 1 foot in childhood and 1 foot in adulthood.

It's not going to be easy.

But again, like no time is easy.

So tell the children young, you know, get the language moving when they're toddlers in grade school, whenever it is.

So it's not that big of a deal.

Normalize it.

You know, I, I, I can only speak to what we're doing now with the relationship with with Iowa in particular is just like we talk about her as as the Chia, you know what I'm saying?

She's she's a part of the family.

She's fully integrated.

We're already planning the next trip.

Kids can't wait.

That's how it is.

That's awesome, thank you.

And what advice do you have for your fellow DCP who maybe just found out through a DNA test that they're done conceived That's so important.

Alexis, thank you.

You please reach out.

Reach out to me.

Reach out to the that we are donor conceived.

Reach out to donor conceived community.

Reach out to donor conceived counsel.

Just just reach out.

Don't stay isolated.

It, you know, I did it for three years for my own reasons.

And I can look back and say I probably shouldn't have waited that long, but I'm glad I found my people.

But just be just be cognizant that your people are out there and and everybody's ready and willing to embrace you.

So find us.

We're here.

We're here for you.

Eric, thank you so much for joining me today.

I really enjoyed our conversation.

Thank you for being so vulnerable, to share your journey and also to educate the listeners.

Who maybe didn't know about some of the origins of reproductive assistance.

And I'll ongoing isn't.

It carefully.

I will think more carefully the next time I say nature versus nurture, That's not sure.

But no, thank you so much.

I wish you the best and I hope.

I really do hope that things get better and better with your parents.

I appreciate that.

That's kind of you.

No, I just wanted to mention that it it's, it's super important the work that you are doing also Alexis with your podcast and all the other podcasts and in like the broader MPE community because in in terms of like I was like I said before of of not feeling isolated and feeling a part of community, you do that, your program does that, you are doing that so.

Thanks again to Eric for sharing his story.

If you have a DNA surprise story that you'd like to share, please submit your story@dnasurprisespodcast.com until next time.