Hayley’s DNA Surprise

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I was so I have to tell you a little Side Story to the paternity test.

So back obviously, in 2015, I remember just Googling like we've got this, this talk show a bit like you're Jerry Springer.

I think over here in the in the UK is a bit with similar thing called the Jeremy Kyle show.

I don't know if you ever made over across departments but very similar dramatic talk show type thing and he was forever doing DNA tests, you know prove the paternity and all this kind of stuff.

And I just remember thinking that I've fallen into one of these stories now is become my

Imagine spitting into a tube, sending off your DNA.

And unknowingly turning your life upside down for me and thousands of others.

This is our reality, I'm your host Alexis ourselves in July of 2021, I discovered that I am an NP e.

Someone who has experienced a non paternal event.

In other words my biological father is Isn't who I thought he was this podcast shares.

The journeys of people who were shocked by a DNA Discovery.

Mostly through Modern DNA testing.

We're telling the stories of NP, he's adoptees and donor conceived people and their families.

This is DNA surprises.

One of the most interesting things about the DNA.

Surprise Community is, how much intersection there is between adoptees donor conceived people and NP.

He's in this week's episode Haley, was one of the first people conceived through IVF in the UK shares.

Her npe story, while she knew that she was donor conceived.

It wasn't until she was in her 30s.

That she learned her raised.

Father is not her genetic.

It as a DCP Haley has a unique perspective, as she embarked on her own parenting Journey with her wife.

She shares how being donor conceived affects?

How she discusses the topic with her twins and what regulations are and should be in place for DCPS worldwide?

Thank you for sharing your story,

Haley.

So my name is Haley.

I'm from the UK and I'm nearly 40.

I suppose good place to start is from the beginning.

I was raised in a traditional mum, dad family in the UK, grew up, very sort of normal childhood I suppose.

And when I was about 12, my parents actually sent me down to tell me some big news, and they actually sort of built up, was quite a big sort of reveal.

And I remember vividly thinking they were going to tell me.

I was adopted, I can't be described why I felt like that.

I just did.

But actually they turned around and told me that I was an IVF baby, which for someone of my area was very unusual and they proceeded to tell me that they died.

I knew that Had some fertility problems to have me because I was an only child.

And I'd always ask for siblings growing up.

And my mom always said, let us not going to happen because me, and your dad struggled to have you, but I didn't know about the IVF part in back.

Then in the 90s it was referred to as like a test tube baby.

So that's what I'm sort of told.

My parents brought out loads of newspaper articles because I was one of the first IVF babies and that the original cohort of babies that were born to support Patrick Steptoe and Robert Edwards.

For the first-ever IVF Consultants at the first-ever IVF clinic in the world at born Hall.

So I was one of those lucky ones I suppose.

So yeah, that I found that out quite young and it was a celebrated story growing up kind of something you told people when say something unusual about yourself and things like that but sadly what I didn't know and what I found out very late in life relatively in my early 30s, sadly in a family argument, basically it was insinuated that my dad wasn't really my dad.

Which is like a huge bombshell.

And the way it came out obviously, was in an essay in a family argument.

Did your, your, your mother or father?

Tell you that?

It was an argument between my mom and dad and my mom turned round and said, your dad might not be who you think he is or words to that effect or your dad's?

Not who you think he is.

And at first, I wasn't really sure what she meant.

It was kind of said, like I say, In the Heat of an argument and it was only on reflection.

I challenge my dad about actually because I originally thought they might have been like an affair or I don't know like your mind starts to one, you know, wonder what it could be and he just turned around to me on the phone when I asked him about it and started to get upset and said, I've got something to tell you me and your mum when we were going through IVF treatment, basically, found out that I was had problems with my sperm and we, I think, to be honest, this is where my memory becomes a

bit blurred and I don't know if it's Cause it was so, like bit such big news being told to me, but from what I remember, he basically said there was a chance that he wasn't my biological father and his words were we used a donor as part of the treatment so I was kind of like, well, you either did use a donor or you did it and right.

And the story that my parents were told is that they've mixed the sperm samples of my dad with that of the donor, an anonymous donor.

So that's kind of.

Yeah.

So it could have been either and they didn't even

know, don't like the according to them.

Well, I think like, without going too far ahead in the future.

When the truth everything came out exactly what had happened.

My parents said that when they sat down to tell me about the ibf.

Part back when I was 12 years old, they actually did consider telling me about this potential donor, but they didn't have any information on on who he was.

And the doctor does adopted even said, look just forget about it, you know, never tell your daughter, don't tell anybody.

So they thought better of it.

They weren't, they didn't mention that to me and I'm wondering.

Now, whether that was why there was such a builder and why I was, maybe feeding off their anxiety about telling me.

Because I think there was always this hidden part that they didn't, you know, they obviously haven't told me, I don't know.

I have asked my parents out, right.

Did you know, 100% either way and I do, I've got have had different reactions.

I've had different comments, I think there was always may be an element of doubt.

I think they did think that I I wasn't my dad's biological daughter.

I think that was more what they assumed because, my dad had years of treatment and, you know, tests and things like that.

And had very, I think it was pretty much nearly infertile, I think it was only later on, once it was confirmed that they were still, maybe that element of Doubt there for them.

So when you were 12, you really thought it was both of your parents and you were conceived through the magic of Science.

And it wasn't – to you at all until it came out that, oh, well, actually, Your dad might not be your biological

father.

Yeah, that's right.

It was a complete bombshell to be honest.

I think out of all the things that the comment when the comment was said in the argument, the thought of being the owner conceived or the fact, my dad wasn't my biological father was furthest from what I thought it could be.

I just hadn't even contemplated that that could fit a thing.

How

did you feel?

How did you feel at that thought?

I mean, I know it was kind of a, he might he may or may, he may not be, but what were your feelings?

My first thing was I've got find out.

I've got Got to do a paternity test and I'm kind of one of these people.

I'm quite an inquisitive person.

I wouldn't just be able to, I think just sits on that information.

Like my parents have maybe sat on it, that's over 30 years.

When you know, the argument happened of me being, you know being alive.

I think.

As soon as there was that day out there, I literally ordered a paternity test straight away and was like I'm going to do it.

I'm going to find out because obviously that point I just needed to know, I just needed to know. 100%.

And when I looked up paternity tests, they were quite expensive actually to do back in 2015 and it was quite, I'm shocked actually how expensive they were and I think the cheapest one I could find was still 120 pounds, which is still quite a lot of money.

Like I nearly didn't buy this one, just out of principle because it was called who's the daddy.com was the name of the company.

So it's just like, that's so awful.

But I was like, yeah, it's 20 quid cheaper than the rest of the sudden, you know, the rest of the things.

So I went for, who's the daddy.com.

So, I purchased my kit, It and it came back that my dad, obviously, my dad did a swab sample.

I did the swab sample.

We sent it off and it was like 10 days.

And I think I remember having the result on my phone because it come through as an email.

And I think up until that point, I still had an element of hope that my dad was still my biological father and I just felt crushed my phone and it just said the chances of you know.

So my dad's name being you know, paternity wise is 99.999% that you are not.

You know, genetically related and that he is not genetic father and at yeah there was just it was just awful.

And I said, I don't really I don't really know what I did.

I think I just stared at it for an M40.

Is that could there be an error?

Could that because they're still be a chance or but yeah, that's just how it was really.

What did your father

say?

He kind of just I think I just found him up and told him and he was like kind of said why I kind of always really new.

I think maybe he still did have Some hope as well.

Maybe and he just said, look, you know, you're still my daughter and I was like, yeah, you're still my dad and it was all very, it was just really difficult, it was just awful time.

Lots of awkward difficult conversations.

My dad was really upset.

I was really upset.

Obviously, without talking, too much about my parents relationship, they were going through problems as a result of what, what obviously happened in that in that situation, it was just awful.

Just awful to go through

at this point.

Did you have

children?

No, with this before you had any children.

Okay,

yeah.

So this was what this was before I had children.

So then you decided to look for your biological father or did you sit with it for a while?

What happened

next?

So actually, we actually had children in the period between, when I found out, I was going to conceived and then I actually DNA tested when our children about two years old.

And I guess a for those of your listeners that don't know my story.

I in a same-sex relationship with my wife, we've been married.

Married for a long time and we wanted to start a family and obviously, we need a sperm donor to help us with that.

And it did form.

I think maybe and donor conceived.

Although, in the UK it's the law that you use at least an open ID 18, donor anyway.

I think even if that wasn't in place because of what had happened to me and they were just there was no information on the donor, you know, my parents didn't have any information, I phoned the clinic up and I just basically didn't exist.

There was no Chords.

You know, they just wouldn't they couldn't tell me anything and I didn't want that for our children.

I wanted them to be able to have access to, you know, the information on their genetic father if they wanted it.

So that was kind of a driver for us.

So we were really fortunate my wife, we had IVF treatment so we had one round of IVF.

We did that because my wife had some fertility problems.

So we were told look if you want to use your wife's eggs, we've gotta get Goin type thing and And yeah.

In 2017 we welcomed our boy girl twins to the world.

So yeah and then it was only like I say when they were a few years old.

I kind of really started to think about my own donor conception Discovery and my own DNA Discovery if you like and thinking about them and how we were going to talk to them, about, being down to conceive that I then decided to DNA test myself and

did you come up with the matches and what was that?

Like,

well, it was just I duelist, I'd read so much about donor conception by Point because back in 2015, I mean I know it doesn't seem that long ago but there wasn't a lot of information out there, you know, I remember you being there in the conception and just there was like, a few random newspaper articles and, you know, there wasn't like a podcasts or anything like that.

And then over the, like, the next kind of five year for five years, lots of stuff had gone on the internet.

So we are going to conceive, for example, would set up, you know, the Facebook group which had loads of information in it.

And I was kind of anticipating.

I was going to have like loads of matches.

So So I was a bit worried actually that I was going to sign up and have like 50 siblings or I just didn't know what to accept that you know to expect.

And so I used ancestry was my first first test I did.

And I really didn't have a lot.

I was a bit disappointed.

Actually, I'm just a couple.

I did have some sort of distant cousin matches that I knew were for my paternal side, because I'd had.

So, I've got some maternal side relatives that were already on ask ancestry.

And I could obviously decipher between the sides.

But, yeah, I did.

Have a lot initially.

So, it's a bit, a bit upset,

and, and when you took that when you took the test, were you hoping to find your genetic father or or was it more like, well, I guess if it was ancestry you weren't as focused on the health information.

Were you seeking to connect with genetic family on that side?

Primarily

I think I wanted to know who the donor was so my biological father.

I just wanted a photograph.

I I wanted just something because my parents literally had nothing to give me.

They had it, they were apparently told by the doctors when they were having treatment that he was potentially a medical student and with similar color into my dad, whatever that means.

So.

And that was all, you know, that wasn't anything written down that was what they remembered from, you know, nearly 40 years ago when they were going through treatment.

So I just yeah, I was looking, I was looking for him but not for I think other than really, just the photo and just just information, I just have nothing.

It was like and when I found out my dad wasn't my biological father.

I just felt like there was this void and there was like I needed to fill it.

I was probably the best word want to describe it.

That totally makes sense.

That, you know, you just are thirsty for information.

And I feel like that that's like the npe experience, right?

I mean, you really did have an N PE experience because

you didn't know this until you

are at older, how did you were You able to find him, and what did you do to put the pieces

together?

It took a lot of work.

So, I ended up without taking up too much time on the podcast because it would take you forever.

But we ended up again with thanks to some Facebook groups.

We are going to conceive that.

I mean, I went into DNA testing completely blind had no idea what any of the matches meant like the CMS.

The family trees.

It was like a whole new world, so me and my wife actually sat down and treated it It looks like a science project expose our detective project and we would literally when the twins room bed because they were only about two at the time, we'd spend hours literally hours every night when they went to bed, trying to piece through public, family trees matches, that I'd had Census records birth different, their records, everything you could think of.

And I was so fortunate and probably didn't realize how fortunate I was at the time, but I matched with who someone who actually turned out, to me my half first cousin once.

One time removed so I managed to message him and he'd had quite an established tree but nothing that was that jumped out at me but he was very keen with you know genealogy.

He'd obviously done a lot of work on his tree and he was he had some questions about his own family history so he was very keen to talk to me and I explained my situation.

I think he was quite fascinated and we actually spoke on the phone one afternoon.

So I live in.

So I live in South Wales in the United Kingdom and If up in like an area of Yorkshire, which is, you know, few sort of hours drive away, and I actually had some of my ancestry breakdown was part British but that British element was sent was around the Yorkshire area.

So and he obviously had grown up there so we got talking about potential surnames and you know what where to look and things like that and I basically just randomly at the end of the conversation, we've been speaking for about an hour and I just said, said to him I said what any doctor This in your family by any chance.

And he said, actually, yeah we there are two.

I've got two distant cousins.

He said, but I don't, I'm no longer in touch with, but they are doctors and I was like, right.

I was like this, I've got a feeling this is going to be one of them too and I said if you've got any photographs of them and he was actually, I think I may have.

So anyway, a few days later, he was able to send me some photographs of these bits set of brothers that would have been about the right age and he was able to give me the first and second names and the Date of birth.

And from that we and the photographs and the one photograph, which actually did turn out to be my biological.

Father, I looked at it and I knew instantly.

I was like, I said, like, it's just him.

I study even stood, like, I stand and he was stood next to my, my paternal grandmother and I could see a likeness.

They even though it was an old granny photograph, I could see the likeness.

And my wife said the same.

She was like, we think it's him.

Yeah, and then we were able, then to piece that together, Gether and maybe make some, we made some inquiries with the two brothers because obviously, potentially the cnd's could be the same.

And the one, the other brother, the older brother which we did think it was because the age Gap lived in Canada, but the younger brother who did turn out to be my biological.

Father actually lived lives about half an hour from here, like 30 minutes away.

So did you reach out to him

directly?

Well, again, I was a little bit crazy because I think, again, I'm sort of coming across as very But I had this information but we've had no contact details for him.

I had a rough address through.

So in the UK we've got something called companies house, which lists all business records and a lot of them are public.

So I knew he was a doctor and I was able to find out where he practiced and like you say, there's so much you can find out on the internet these days and we were able to get a business address for him that was registered on companies house and I was able to go through all the previous records and on one of the documents there was a Contact number.

And there was also what I thought what it didn't seem like a business address.

It was actually a home address.

So I had an address for him, but the contact number I had just rang out.

It was an old landline so that was no good.

So all I had was an address but to cut a long story short when I done some investigative work at the address the, it wasn't specific.

So it's like a set of like, I do you guys call it Apartments, but we call it, like Flats.

So, in the UK.

So it wasn't quite clear which one of the houses it would have been from this address that I That's so I didn't, I couldn't send a letter because I didn't know I could have been anyone, you know, to my, you know, to use by sperm donor biological.

Father in X.

Probably, I want to spend a few property is that

every apartment

soap opera people thinking all this, this person's little bit crazy.

So I actually did something even more crazy.

And my wife wasn't very happy and I actually found her when I was on Route and I drove to the address on my own one day.

Day and knocked the door.

And when I got to the door, I thought it was.

I knew it was him because it had doctor and his surname on the buzzer.

So I was like, perfect.

This is the one.

So nobody answered, even though my heart was in my mouth.

And I thought what am I even going to say?

If someone opens the door, why I just had like this moment of Madness because I'm normally quite a rational person.

But I just think I just needed to know.

I just got to this point where I was like I just want to find out good or bad.

I just want to know and see who he is.

And as it happened, he was actually away on a long trip in New Zealand.

So he was away for sort of a period of time and I spoke to a neighbor and left a handwritten letter, asking him to contact me when he got back and he did.

And was that just the longest wait ever for him to get back from New Zealand?

Because that's one of the things as you're telling the story.

I know you said that you found impatient but I'm thinking.

How are you being so patient?

Yeah, I think for a few days for a photo and then you're Doing all this research and now you found him.

You think?

Yes.

You have to wait for him to get back from New Zealand.

And the neighbor didn't know how long it was going to be away so that also just added to the as he got the letter.

Does he know what it's about?

Is it the right guy?

Is it, is it the brother in Canada?

All these things go through your mind.

And let you say, I think, unless you've kind of been through it.

People don't realize the kind of, especially if there has been a lot of research that's gone into it is some It just becomes a bit consuming, that would probably be the way.

I would describe it.

And I think I just wanted to know, and yeah, it took a few.

I think it was nearly three weeks and he sent me a text message, actually.

And just said, hi Hayley.

It's Jonathan, I speak about him on my, on my Instagram certain.

He's very open about our story, but he he won't mind me saying, but he replied and said, I've been away on a long trip.

I would love to catch up about the content of your letter and he Kind of left it like that.

I was actually going out on a I was going out that evening with a friends were concert and I was desperate to put.

I was like, I just want to call him now but he couldn't talk, I couldn't talk.

And I thought, you know what?

For once, I am actually going to be a bit patient and I'll leave it to tomorrow when we can both speak.

And we did, we had a lovely conversation and within, I heard his voice straight away.

And I just said, you know, this is my story.

I've done some research and I gave the name of the person I've been speaking to who was like a distant cousin.

And I said, basically turned around and said, I think you might be the sperm donor.

He went.

I think you might be right really.

Pretty much just said it like, ah, he was really quiet.

Yeah, the first part of the conversation, he just didn't say anything and I just thought I got this wrong.

Like this poor man, like just fuck.

So

he so he acknowledged or admitted that he had donated his sperm in the past and eats and everything kind of lined up.

How did you?

Confirm that he was your father.

Yes, it wasn't until so we do obviously we met up with exchange photographs and the likeness is like quite striking.

And I mean I used to think I look like my mum, but then I met Jonathan.

I was like like wow, like even like things, like I'd always wondered like my pointy nose.

I could see my nose on him.

And you know, I've always jokes of I always thought it was because I used to do a lot of outdoor Sport and suffered with lots of wrinkles and things but he's exactly the same around his eyes is for.

You know why?

Head, and then you view it as your listeners, can't see what I'm doing, but like, no,

she's not, she's not wrinkly either.

Let's

get it.

So droll, yeah, I got the focuses on that, but I always used to think I just used to think, you know, it was just that when I saw him, I was like it, we've got exactly the same like, you know, the brow and, you know, the crow's feet and just all those kinds of things that you just don't, you know?

It was just quite, I don't even know what the word and it was just incredible to see.

But, yeah, he confirmed it but it was only so we didn't.

Have anything, you know, scientific if you like for a good.

So we had the pandemic then.

So the pandemic hit literally about two weeks after I met Jonathan back in 2020.

So everything kind of went on pause.

And then when we picked up again, although we stayed in contact for a pandemic, obviously, we didn't meet in person, but we went when that was over, we did sort of start meeting up again and I did just approach them and I just said, look, Jonathan it would mean the world to me if you took An ancestry kit, not because I doubt You but I do have doubts.

Like, I know that sounds a bit contradictory, but I think because of the situation with my dad Having that information, you know, thinking you one thing and then being told you're not for me to feel like I'd solve the problem 100% in Gone, full circle with it.

I just want it in black and white.

I wanted that confirmation and he did, and he was, he was really good.

Because obviously by him doing a DNA test, he was then putting himself out into the world officially too.

So I don't think it was any easy step for him, but he did agree to do it and I'll be forever grateful that he did.

Because, yeah, I've got it.

It.

Now, when you go onto my ancestry, it's there in black and white.

Did he?

And cover any other children and uploading his DNA

yesterday?

There's three others.

So, a sister and two brothers.

He never had children of his own.

So he's actually a gay man.

Jonathan.

So he never had any never had children of his own.

So for him, I think he's always wondered about is, you know, donations and you know the children that were created from them.

He said he's always been curious over the years but I think the good thing about his situation is that he was always very open with all of Partners.

So you had to like long-term relationships, you'd always told them that he was a sperm donor.

So I think that helped because he there was no surprises on his side.

You know when he asked his long-term partner that he's with now, but when I came out the woodwork, it wasn't like a huge.

I still a shock but not his sir, you know?

Like it can be for some people that haven't disclosed, but yeah, we found.

So since I went on there, I actually match your half-sister on one of the smaller dealers.

In a sites, one of the, you know, the smaller ones, my Heritage, and then literally only in November.

Last year, there was two brothers from two different families, randomly tested within a week of each other, because they to popped up within a week.

So there are, there are four of us that we know of

and did they know that they were donor conceived?

When they took their test, or did they learn through the test?

Sadly, two of them learned through taking the test and the one brother he did.

Thankfully know that he was only can see, but he was still, he was still a teenager when he Found out.

So, you know, relatively is still a late Discovery.

But yeah, at least he went because I suppose for me and my one brother, we went into a DNA test knowing that we were doing a conceived or right you know, certainly he, you know, he did.

I obviously knew that my dad that raised me was not my biological father but the other two actually had no idea when they sent the DNA off that they were doing and see them.

Sadly my era.

Sadly, that might well be the trend with other

siblings.

And have you connected, aren't you have a relationship with those siblings that you

found?

I didn't initially.

So the one sister basically, I think it was such a shock.

So she didn't know she was doing a conceived, I kind of told her my story and I was very Cautious, not to just turn around and say, look, you're gonna conceives because you know, I just basically told her my story and hoped that she would join the dots.

But she basically turned around and said, look, I this doesn't match my family.

There must be some kind of mistake essentially and she asked me not to contact her again, so she just completely went off radar.

So that was in, you know, about and that that actually happened.

Just prior to me finding Jonathan.

So that actually happened before the Jonathan Part.

So I didn't really have a lot of information to give her either.

At that point, only that I knew I was doing a concede, but she's recently, just got back in contact in the last couple of months.

So that's been lovely and my two brothers that I matched with, in November, we've been sort of loosely in contact with one of them.

I've had like a zoom call with and we've only recently just gone into like a big group chat so that's quite nice.

But it's all very early days.

I think still with my siblings.

With Jonathan.

What kind of relationship?

Do you want to have with him?

Or does he want to have with you?

Is it friendship?

Is it paternal?

And anyway, how are things going there?

Yeah, it's good.

I mean, I just, we just get on really, really well.

And I don't know whether that's because we share DNA, or we just have similar interests.

So, I don't know, but we do get on.

Well, I mean, I've often said, like, if we didn't get on, well, I probably wouldn't have maintained a relationship.

I'd of had a photograph, the medical history, you know, No few Family Photos, maybe and I probably would have maybe left it there but we actually do that on very well.

And I enjoy his company and you know, he said that enjoys minor hope he does.

And yeah, we kind of I wouldn't it's not turn away in any way.

I mean, he's only just 20 years older than me.

So okay, so he was young.

So he's a young medical student.

So my parents are a lot older as well, so they're kind of like the generation up again, so I'd say that.

Jonathan its kind of is more I would even say it's like an uncle He's kind of like I said it before is bit like my crazy gay Uncle, he's like kid.

So if I'm boy and he's like into Theater, which I'm not at all, but he's very theatrical to real people person very sociable.

Yeah, we just get on.

So I would say it's a kind of maybe friendship kind of stroke Uncle maybe but yeah, well I don't, it's quite nice, not having to kind of Define it because we kind of it is unusual.

And my dad is still very much my dad and like, he, my dad is the first person I go to in a trouble or if I've got something I need to resolve.

Or, you know, I will always bring my dad,

do your parents know that you connected with Donna, then?

So I was very

keen to break the cycle of, I don't, you know, I don't want to say lies because I think my parents you know, they did they did know some information but I'm not sure how much they really knew or, you know.

And they were they were they raised me in an era where they were Not to tell.

So I, you know, it's difficult for them, but I didn't want to continue this kind of secrecy, shame kind of Lies cycle and it was really important to me.

It was, it was really difficult to tell my parents about Jonathan because I didn't want to upset them or upset my dad more importantly.

I felt it really important for me to be honest for them.

What was happening and I thought why are?

You know I owe them that much as well, really, because I was sort of embarking on this kind of Journey and, you know, it's been awkward and we've had difficult conversations, but I'm so pleased.

I've told them so they don't have to hide that I'm, you know, meeting up with him or something like that

did Jonathan hope that he would find his children, or was it just something that he did when he was young and knew it was a possibility?

I'm so curious about

that.

Yeah, I think, to be honest, I think back then, it was obviously 100%.

Anonymous DNA.

Testing wasn't even a thing.

He's been very honest actually with me.

He's turned around and said, look, I did it for the money.

I was poor student.

I needed some assistance financing.

My medical degree and you know, I think it's mercenary.

I think it's the word he used.

You know, it was a mercenary act and although that might sound a bit harsh, I actually really appreciate that Honesty because he didn't really try.

He said it was a nice thing to think he was helping people, but that wasn't his primary goal for donate.

And, but he said, as he got older, Then he began to think, maybe when he was older, obviously never had children either.

Because even as a gay man, you know, 80s 90s into the 2000s, he could never adopt even it wasn't, you know, legal to adopt back, then in obviously, you never was able to have children in his own family.

So I suppose then maybe as we all do, as you get a bit older you start reflecting a little bit and he said he did always wonder and I was doing hope that someone may, you know, that that day may come when he gets maybe, not some ring, his doorbell but

Well, I'm so happy that it has turned out so positive and that you have been able to have this open and honest relationship with Jonathan, your siblings and your raised parents.

So you then between finding out like you said between finding out that you were donor conceived and finding Jonathan.

You had children with your wife, and yeah, but the doughnuts were conceived route.

How did your being donor conceived?

Inform your donor,

conceived Journey.

Well initially, I think it was mainly over the identity thing.

So we were kind of like the open ID, you know, that's kind of we felt at the time that that was kind of enough that you know our children could have that idea that I wasn't wasn't given.

We did consider a known donor at the time but there was lots of that.

The one person we really had in mind had some health problems and then they were also may be looking to do like a co-parenting situation, which we weren't really Keen to do and if I'm brutally honest, Very frightened, I think of because we were in a same-sex relationship.

Although in the UK there are some legal rights afforded to same-sex couples even like 67 years ago.

Some of those rights weren't as strong.

We were a bit worried about if we did it, you know, outside of it.

Even outside of a clinic setting or even through a clinic, but using a known donor, it could get a bit complicated.

So we did go down the open ID route and I think the only thing I would say having met Jonathan because obviously, See when we did all that, I haven't even met on it, but my wife hadn't met Jonathan either.

And we've since said that, you know, actually I suddenly realized how important it can be to have that identity and it made me reflect I think on how we thou talk to the children.

So things like really little things like well, I suppose I could be big things but so for example I used to call Jonathan before I even knew who he was like the donor and I'd be like, you know, the donor and then I met him and I was like, well, it doesn't quite Feel right, calling him, the donor.

I actually prefer biological father, and I'm not really quite sure why, but I think it's because I knew him then.

So he was like a real person.

He wasn't just some mythical creature, the donor.

So we've kind of been a bit like that with the children.

So we've kind of like, so we're very mindful not to pigeonhole terms with them.

So we've stopped, even though the children are only young, I'll Twins and any five, we've kind of started to use words like biological father, the donor, you know, things like that.

And we started to incorporate like Tales of his profile.

So we'll talk to them about him and we've got photos.

And, you know, and just not shy away from talking about him.

Because I think there's one thing I have learned is, you know, my parents really struggle to kind of talk about anything to do with donor conception.

And I don't really want, and that's not their fault.

I think that's just up there a product of the time, you know, raising me in that era and they have no support, you know, no help.

Whereas now, I think things have changed and moved on and, you know, we've considered potentially, you know, we've matched with the Children's half-siblings, so we've gone and sort them out.

So we're in contact now, with our children's siblings from other sibling, families, that have used the same donor that what my wife and I are out of.

And we're going to hopefully be meeting up with some of them this Summer fine and just stuff like that.

So he's kind of just maybe and it's just maybe we changed.

Changed my thought processes a little bit.

I suppose having met Jonathan and maybe seeing the relationship.

I've got the Jonathan hasn't threatened.

My Bishop with my dad in any way.

So it's been quite reassuring for me because I'm the non-genetic parent with the twins as well.

So it's been quite comforting that if that make identified make sense but I think that's it does.

Yeah,

you still can have just as close of a bond regardless of what connection they end up making with their biological.

Father

was exactly.

Yeah, and the thing is we you know, we have tools that things like DNA test in early and things like that and although we've held off at the moment we're not completely ruling that out 318, you know, which is something we've She would consider if maybe that the children were able to have a conversation with them and they wanted to and stuff, you know, earlier, so yeah, definitely lots of things.

I think finding Jonathan is maybe made me my wife.

Think a little bit differently about how we're doing it with the twins.

I suppose

do your children have many questions at this point about how they came to be and not

really.

They know they're pretty good with so they can basically.

I mean, like I said, they're only five nearly so they can they know they need a sperm and an egg.

Egg to make a baby and then OU needs a body to grow it.

In kind of thing.

What makes a baby is like one of the favorite books.

I don't know if that's because we read all the time, but they loved it and they really, you know, they can pretty much repeat it, you know, word for word.

And then obviously, we've introduced the concepts that there is a third person that was involved in creating them.

So we have started to have questions.

Like so we've without going too much of because it's sort of into their story but we've discussed Them where, you know, the donor, their, you know, their genetic father is from so they've asked questions like what can we meet him?

So we're kind of like we're not at the moment but you know further down the line that might be a possibility but they've had questions like what's his name?

So that's been quite difficult because we haven't got a name so it's all these things that you maybe don't anticipate.

It's apparent that are going to come those kinds of.

I know it sounds a bit Daft but it's no

similar to The questions you had, right?

Yes, picture.

You wanted that basic information, so yeah, that makes

sense.

That's it.

And I think sometimes as parents I mean, I'm guilty of it as well.

You kind of overthink your responses, think sometimes kids just just want a response.

They're not, they're kind of like, oh, okay, they just take it as like gospel.

Don't make a move on to the next thing and so I've been trying to kind of like just get ourselves used to, you know, the questions that might come and just try and be as honest with him as we can't you know, if we don't know the answer to something, I Going to make it up and, you know, and things like that.

That I think maybe some parents may be want the story to seem nicer or if they haven't got any information, say, on the donor that they've used the Temptation is to kind of fill that information with stuff that might sound nice, which, you know, to a kid, they might latch onto and stuff like that, you know?

So we're very mindful about giving information out to them that we, you know, maybe don't know the answers to it as well and just stuff like that really weird sort of quick cash.

It's

okay to say, I don't know.

Yeah, hmm, yes.

So I don't know, a ton about donor conception laws and rules in the UK.

But is there any kind of just foundational guidelines based on your experience as both a donor conceived person and a recipient parent that you believe should be in place?

Just broadly or donor conception.

Well, it's a really good question actually.

So there are Carlos and they vary.

So the biggest law change was in 2005 in the UK, where it basically made all.

So if you're using donor, conception of What's called the HFA, which is our body in the UK that oversees issues with donor conception.

So, if you're having treatment in the UK, UK Clinic, any donor use has to be what's called an open ID.

Donor 18.

So it's all recorded by a public body that a child, when they get to 18, they can apply for that.

Information.

And they can also apply for information on their siblings as well.

So that's quite an important thing that's, which is quite good in the UK.

My biggest problem with the law is that there's nothing no mechanism in place in the UK to tell someone their donor conceived if they haven't been told by their parents.

So those identity release laws are great.

But they're fully reliant on the person knowing that the donor conceived, and it was recently raised by the hfe a in I think one of the like reviews of the law and they are looking, that's just one element of it.

But they are looking at probably revisit in some of the laws in the UK, the because the other issue is this 18 open idea. 18 is is one thing, but as we know through DNA testing and you know very well people are doing it a lot younger and really is it right that they're promising.

These donors anonymity to 18 when there's a high chance that some families could find them through DNA testing a lot earlier than 18.

So I think there's a whole debate potentially going to be going on in the next couple years in the UK about whether these laws are still fit for purpose.

So with open ID, what does it what exactly does that mean for people that don't know, do you get some sort of like a number something?

And then you look it up at some point or is it that you reach out to the bank at 18 and then they'll give you a name?

does it work?

So the sort of person when they hit 18, they can apply to the HP.

A for identifying information.

So up until 18, they're given non-identifying information in the UK which is basically height weight eye color, I think profession and then some like interested but it does vary a little bit but it's all non-identifying 18 you could apply for the identifying.

So that is as far as I'm aware is date of birth name.

Last known address?

Which that's the other thing.

Does it do they get updated?

Probably not, it's reliant on the clinic.

There's nothing in place to Update a bit like, what some of the state in yourselves, over in America, kind of, trying to, which I think is a good thing.

They're trying to get Banks to update medical records.

So yeah, it's an address and and that's it.

So that they're given that information or anything else that is ever been recorded, you know, from the clinic that they're able to give, but essentially those identifying information, but they're also able to get details on this, something that will The Sibling Link in the UK.

I think it's called UK sibling, link pre 18, even so He's done it for the twins.

We've been able to contact hfe a and get information on the twin siblings, but just non-identifying information on the twin siblings of that makes sense.

Even though we found them for Facebook groups, we've been able to find out information on the rest of the rest of them, potentially in the UK.

But at 16, I think the children can ask to be signed up to this sibling link registry, and if the other siblings are on the registry, they put them in touch.

So you don't automatically get the information of the siblings, but if everyone signs up, then you're given information of each other if that makes sense at 16 and a fellow dependent

on the sign up.

Yeah, yeah.

And again, if people don't know their donor

conceived, they don't know to sign up.

So yeah and there is I think, one of the reasons behind whether the ideas Behind The Sibling link was because it's 16.

The idea is that, you know, people are potentially forming relationships with one.

Another

are there limitations to family sizes in the

UK yet, so it's limited to ten families.

I'm not 10 children, so I think that's ten families, not including the donor.

So the donor could go on to have say, I don't know, two children from two different mums, or whatever, and then ten other families, but one of my big bugbears is that not many people know that if you use a donor from outside of the UK.

So, for example, say you're having UK treatment, but you decide to import a donor from, I don't know, a German sperm bank those limits only.

Fly within the UK.

So that's where I've had a lot of people contact me through Instagram, where they've suddenly realized they think because they've had UK treatment that they're protected by these 10 family limits, but what they haven't been told properly by the clinic, is that because they've used an imported donor in there, may be 10 in the UK but there may also be five in Germany or six in France or and then obviously if the donor has also been shipped out to the US where you've got no, Jen, you can see how

the how the numbers can spiral.

So the UK is tried to protect itself, I suppose, but one of the big sort of gray areas that I want to try and improve on.

It clinics is parents because it's still happening now.

I because I have parents contact me all the time.

So I've just realized I've just joined his Facebook groups and I've found twenty five siblings yet and they're from all over the place yet.

I thought it was restricted to ten families and I'm like, yeah, but did you use a donor from x, y and Zed?

And I'm like, yes.

And I'm like, well, that's why.

But it's not being hold properly at clinics.

You have quite a presence now on Instagram, where you're kind of educating people about what you've been through and other recipient parents, can you share your Instagram handle for anyone that wants to find you and learn more?

sure.

So, it's not the easiest to remember, I didn't think too hard when I set up based on in the show notes.

Yeah, it's DCP underscore Journey underscore 2, RP essentially, donor conceived, person's journey to recipient parent but

I mean I

just try I think it's that I started off just doing an interview I didn't set my Instagram account up to do anything particular.

I just set one up because I've never used Instagram before but for like seven or eight months ago I'd never even been on Instagram.

I was always a Facebook person but yeah and it's just it's been really refreshing actually been on Instagram and being able to interact with people and do lives and not only share my story but maybe yeah a little bit more education.

I suppose there's lots of situations across the world where Donor conception education can be improved.

And I, what I'm really enjoying seeing his parents and only can see people like working together has been really lovely to see, actually.

And I hope that's the way it continues because I think we all want, what's best for donor can see people, so, yeah, long may that continue?

I would like to touch on something you shared before the interview which is that through your DNA testing, you uncovered, an NP e.

Actually in your Lee, can you touch on that a little bit, what

happened?

Well, I noticed, like through the DNA results that there wasn't something quite right with, some of my strength of my connections, with my maternal side relatives.

I didn't notice at first, I had no idea about DNA test that I just saw a match and just didn't look too far into it but it was only when I got back into it a little while later and obviously know a bit more about the matching and I noticed that a few of my cousins from my mom's side, they're on there were showing a lot weaker than they.

Could be, and I did a bit of probing, and I actually noticed that.

So, I originally had white strong ancestry for Poland Polish, Russian, sort of what used to be called The Old Eastern Bloc countries in Europe, and I assumed it was from Jonathan side originally, but then when I met him and he was like, no, no no.

And he's like Yorkshire through and through, you know, hardly any other ancestry and I'm sorry, this is odd.

Like, where's polish because like 30% polish and I You know, I didn't and I started doing a bit more digging because, you know, like we do with these DNA discoveries.

And yeah, cut a very long story short, I had some discussions with my mum and my mum sort of did say that she'd always suspected that her dad, that raised her wasn't her biological father and I was able to get in touch with some side of the family through ancestry with strong Polish connection still, and that was still in Poland or some that were in the UK.

And I found out that my mum was was an MP a.

So she essentially, Was result of an affair.

So my grandma taken in a larger after the war, so a prisoner of war and X prisoner of war from Poland.

So, in the UK, after the war, it was quite commonplace for British families to take in, you know, displaced people from countries from all over Europe that, you know, for because of the ward lost their homes, and he was a Loggia.

And my mum was the youngest of the all of her siblings and she's obviously come along.

As a result, an affair and I was actually able to get my mum a Of him, I'm provided with that because I kind of knew what that would feel like to want to know and she said it was quite incredible.

She's always suspected something wasn't quite right, but had no way of, she just didn't know how to even go about searching and then, yeah.

So I think, for her, you know, we haven't talked loads about it, but I think she she said It felt nice to have a bit of information about him.

A photograph and like, ya know, are sort of Polish family lying, I suppose

that's incredible.

Why did Vice Do you have for other parents who are may be unsure about how to talk to their children about donor

conception and I think I would say just try and get comfortable yourself.

So if you've got young children, even if they're like one, like even though they don't understand, you know, a lot of what you said.

We're not going to understand it when years old what you're saying, I think a lot of talking about donor conception is actually getting the parent Euston used to talking about it and getting confident.

I would say, you know, start as early as you can get the story books.

You know, there's you can go on my Instagram account or even just online.

Now, there's gradually more and more story books for children out there.

The ones that you can personalize now, but, photographs in and working with the lady at the moment who's doing a book and it is just some of the books are fabulous that are going to be coming out in the next 12 months from from different authors.

So I would definitely say get a couple of donor conceived donor conception storybooks And yeah, just try.

Try not to tackle everything in one go.

I think with parents in, you just want to get everything sorted straightaway and fix everything or try and think think ahead too far.

And I think sometimes it can become very overwhelming.

And I'm, you know, I'm My Own Worst victim of that.

I do that sometimes, but I think you have got plenty of time on your hands especially if you've got young children to kind of work through it as a family and yeah, I would just say take your time and don't be frightened.

Toby.

Frightened to seek for help and ask what other families are doing and, and have a little listen.

Like I say there's plenty of podcasts out there now and information out there that, you know, my parents didn't have, so yeah.

And what advice would you give someone who just discovered that their donor

conceived?

See, that's really that's a toughie as well.

I mean, and haven't seen it with my own siblings.

It is so difficult.

I would just say really, you know, just consider that that, it's not your fault.

What's happened?

You didn't decide this path, you know, this is happened through decisions from other people and yeah, I would say that you're going to got a you got to take your own path moving forward, you know.

And it is Hard, you don't want to offend people upset family members, but if you really want to go and find out the truth and find out about your genetic Heritage or whatever, it may be, then that needs to come first, and, and just go with it and just get some support along the way because it is difficult and there will be, it's like an exhilarating thing, but actually absolutely petrifying all at the same time and I would just say, yeah, just make sure you've got some support there.

Great advice,

Thank you so much for your time.

It's in the evening.

It's okay.

Okay, so I appreciate you taking the time to speak to me and I wish you the best of luck on your journey as you continue to build relationships with your siblings and your genetic.

Father, I hope things continue positively with your parents and you know that things just go well with your children, but it's just really wonderful to get the chance to talk to you about this.

So thank you, thank you for having me on as well.

Thanks again, to Haley for sharing her story.

If you have a DNA surprise story that you'd like to share, please email, DNA surprises at gmail.com.

And if you haven't yet, please rate, review And subscribe to the podcast on Apple podcasts and Spotify.

Until next time.