Angela, Wyatt, Cassidy, and Cody’s DNA Surprise

This transcript was generated automatically. Its accuracy may vary.

Intro

If you've experienced Adna Surprise, you know that your emotions can range from shock to denial to grief to anger to confusion to joy and around again.

And sometimes it's hard to find people who understand this unique experience.

Sometimes we feel a little stuck as we navigate this journey.

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You'll eat delicious catered meals.

And most importantly, you'll build beautiful friendships with people who understand you all in a stunning private ranch facility in the Arizona desert.

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This retreat is for you.

Join us September 19th through the 22nd 2024 in Phoenix, AZ.

Registration is open now.

Reserve your space at dnasurpriseretreat.com.

I'll see you there.

Speaker 2

And I will say that as an industry, when I was an egg donor like it, it was sold to them as if it was anonymous.

The fear of being anonymous

And I get it, 23andMe didn't exist.

But you know what existed.

And here's what I always refer to when when people talk to me about this.

I have a 24 year old as well.

So we have 324 year olds right now.

My 24 year old son ended up at the homecoming dance of the school that these three went to, so his girlfriend lived in the suburb that we all lived in and where I grew up.

She moved to where the suburb where they all live and were growing up in and they all ended up at the same high school dance.

So for me, that was my biggest fear and why I did not want to donate anonymously.

So I didn't want my son to end up at some event and meet his sister and bring his sister home like as a girl he liked.

I was terrified of that, literally terrified of it, which is why I only did open donation, but nobody talked about that.

And I was a coordinator of those cases.

I cycled those girls.

I know what was said to them, I know what is still said to them now.

And what I will say is that there, at least as an industry, there's discussions that are uncomfortable and that's where it starts with uncomfortable discussions.

Speaker 1

Welcome to DNA Surprises, a podcast that delves into the world of unexpected DNA discoveries.

I'm your host, Alexis ourselves in July 2021.

My life took a surprising turn when I found out that I'm an NPEA person who has experienced a non paternal event.

In other words, my biological father isn't who I thought he was.

Join me as we explore the stories of NP ES adoptees and donor conceived people and their families.

Get ready to unravel the astonishing journeys that begin with a simple DNA test.

This is DNA surprises.

How do you define family?

For so many of us, DNA surprises have made us reflect deeply on this question.

For Wyatt, Cassidy, Cody and Angela, the answer is different depending on who you ask. 20 plus years ago, when Wyatt, Cassidy and Cody were born, fertility clinics didn't advocate for disclosure.

So when their mother and father asked Angela, a clinic employee who'd become a friend, to donate her eggs for their subsequent pregnancies, they opted to position Angela as more of a family friend.

Their families kept in touch over the years until contact suddenly stopped.

After many twists and turns, today their family looks different to each of them.

Wyatt lives with Angela, her husband, and their biological and adopted children.

Cassidy views Angela more like a fun Ant.

Meanwhile, Cody's relationship is a little more distant.

In this week's episode, the four of them discuss their journeys from the beginning to where they are now.

They also share what changes they'd like to see in the fertility industry.

You'll hear throughout the episode that each of the siblings has a different perspective on their stories, from when they found out to how they found out.

I won't get on my soapbox again, but I believe this highlights the importance for each of us to be entitled to our own feelings about our own stories.

Thank you Angela, Wyatt, Cody and Cassidy for sharing your stories.

So my name is Angela and I'm 50 and I'm actually from San Diego, CA, but I currently reside in the Phoenix area of Arizona.

Angela’s Story

My name is Wyatt, I'm also from San Diego, and I also currently reside in the Phoenix area.

I'm 24.

Speaker 4

I'm Cody.

I yeah, I'm from San Diego and I still currently live in San Diego area.

I'm 21.

Speaker 5

Cody got his age wrong.

We're 22.

Oh, we're 20.

I'm Cassidy.

I'm 22 and I'm also in San Diego.

Angela, I would love to hear your story, kind of where it starts, with what was happening in your life and why you decided to become an egg donor.

So for me, I was working in the fertility industry already.

I was actually a medical assistant in a fertility clinic.

And at that, at this point in time in my life, I had already been a gestational carrier for someone.

And I had a little girl who was about four years old at the time.

And when I was working at the clinic, I was the one that would draw blood and put patients in the room and then chaperone the doctor in the room.

And so my interaction with the patients was probably more than most people within the center.

Yes, the doctor talked to them.

Yes.

You know, their coordinator may talk to them, but me, I'm kind of holding their hand the whole time they're in the each of their appointments.

So some patients you develop a relationship with and Wyatt and Cody and Cassidy's mom I had developed a close relationship with in her visits and she and I looked very similar.

And so, you know we were talking and we were the same of the same faith of the same background kind of.

And we kind of looked very similar and have the same similar colorings and facial structures.

And she was just a very nice lady.

And I one day was just asked if I would be willing to donate my eggs and and at first I was like, what I I don't I can I go home and talk to my husband.

I didn't I didn't really know how to answer.

So I wasn't sure if that was something that I wanted to do or or that I didn't have any thought one way or the other because nobody had ever really asked me that before.

But I had been a gestational carrier and had carried a pregnancy for someone.

So I thought, well, I mean, let me think about it.

Then I did go home and I did spend it was a day or two.

I went in and said true, I would do it.

And initially, you know, I I told my, the people I worked with obviously knew that I was going to be going through it.

And I told my sibling, which, you know, he was young at the time, in his early 20s.

And he was like, OK.

And I told my parents and my mom was not very happy.

So my mom was like, what she was.

She had this weird.

I understand the thought process when people say it, I just don't agree with it.

So her initial response was you're just giving away my grandkids and I was like, no, I'm donating my eggs, But OK, we talked very briefly about it and then I just went about my life and did it anyways, which is kind of par for the course with me.

So I'm I'm sure that my my parents weren't shocked when years later I go through and the donation was successful and it has it's like 3 really cool kids.

And and I was getting Christmas cards from their mom.

She would send me yearly Christmas cards and so I could see them growing.

And then one year I got a Christmas card and I was like, wow, so their little girl is like a Xerox copy of my face.

If my mom sees this child out and about, she's going to know.

So I took my mom to dinner so she couldn't yell at me in public.

And I laid down the Christmas cards and I was like, so remember when you got really upset with me when I told you that I was going to probably donate my eggs?

Well, I did it anyways.

And here we are.

So it was 2 donation cycles.

There was actually technically 3 because there was a cancelled cycle in there where I had made way too many and then went through and did a cycle and why it resulted.

And then when they came back a couple years later, they wanted siblings.

And at that point I had had a baby between the donations.

So I had that point, had a six year old and a six month old.

And so again, I just took a moment to think and then decided to do it, 'cause I thought, well of course, like, I get why they want siblings and it makes sense.

And you know, this is kind of what my world is and has been still to this day, still is is a donor and surrogate type cases.

And so I said yes again and then we went through again and we significantly less eggs.

So the first time I think there were 16 eggs and it resulted in one baby and then the next time there was 8 eggs, it resulted in two babies.

So technical technology had gotten much better in between the two time frames.

And at that point, I just kind of went about my life.

I've always told my children, I always have.

It's been very open in my life on this side and it was very simple when I did My egg donation.

It's not like it is now.

Nowadays there's like agencies involved and contracts and screenings and things doesn't really didn't really work like that back then.

There weren't contracts.

What was that process?

Yeah, I do.

You want to donate your eggs?

Yeah.

OK, we're donating your eggs.

I mean, like, that's literally how simple it really was.

There was no legal representation on either side.

There was no I no counseling of me of any sorts of like, what does this mean?

What is this gonna cause?

Like, what does this look like?

And then I signed a consent form and said like, hey, yeah, I have a procedure to donate my eggs and and yeah, I won't, you know, try to take custody of kids or anything like that.

And so I think about it now.

That's not how it's done now.

Yeah, was there?

Like a a.

Medical history or medical evaluation?

So there was.

A depth or.

There was.

I filled out probably a 25 page questionnaire.

It covered 3 generations of family, so my grandparents, my parents and myself.

At the time I had a daughter, so I did include things about her.

I turned over maybe 25 to 35 photos of me that range from birth to current.

Their mom had asked that I keep her up to date about my life.

So every now and then I would send letters of like here's what it is or she called the office And I would say this is what it is because in that time I had after donation, I I had completed my bachelor's degree, I had completed my master's degree, I had adopted 2 more kids.

So it was always just kind of nice to have that relationship and then as they got older there was less contact I think probably very much just because life happens.

And and the other part was that it was, I don't want to say it was weird for me, but it, I mean if you if you saw the photographs of me and Cassie as small children like it, it was really like looking at myself.

It was very strange.

It wasn't like a bad weird.

It was just like a, you know, how do I, how do I go to birthday parties or how do I hang out?

Like, what is the explanation?

And the truth is, nobody would probably ask nobody, because nobody is thinking along these lines.

But I knew.

So you were a surrogate first or you had a, so you're a surrogate.

No, no.

I had a child carrier.

So I had a child at 19, and then I was a surrogate for a couple who had many failures with another surrogate before me.

And then they wanted and then we got pregnant and miscarried and they wanted me to be.

This is the weird part is they wanted me to be what's called a traditional surrogate.

So that's where I use my egg and carry the pregnancy.

And I actually said no because for me I couldn't do that.

That's why when like six months later, I was asked to donate my eggs, I was like, somehow this is different and it is different.

And I stand by the fact that it is different.

It's very different.

I'm donating an egg, I'm not carrying a pregnancy that is genetically related to me, and then it putting the baby up for adoption or giving the baby to somebody, it's just different.

I can't really explain it.

Sure.

So you had a child and you were gestational carrier and for people who don't know, is that a distinction within the fertility industry, the idea of a surrogate versus gestational carrier?

So a surrogate is a gestational carrier.

It's just I think industry wise we refer them as gestational carriers and there's traditional surrogacy and gestational surrogacy and traditional surrogacy is, is that person's egg and their uterus, so their child genetically and birthing.

So you birthed a child, then you were a gestational carrier, and then you donated eggs which resulted in Wyatt, and then you had another child.

Yep, I had a little boy.

Six months after Wyatt was born, I had a baby.

OK.

And then you donated again.

Yep.

Which resulted in Cody and Cassidy, and then you adopted children.

Yes, that was like simultaneously, I think I was donating at the same time we were going through the adoption.

And so I adopted my cousin's children who she could not care for.

So I had two adopted children.

OK, so you said that you decided to donate your eggs because you had a a closeness with their mother, and then over time that kind of drifted a little bit.

The Impact of Donating Eggs

Yeah and part of that is life and her life took a a a different turn which that that the kids can choose to share if they would like but their her life took a different turn and and my life became very busy with four kids and so it was just down to Christmas cards and then at at at all and I wasn't updating at all either and and I felt kind of bad because I didn't I didn't get a chance to tell her that I had finished grad school and and kind of where my life was.

I had started a company.

I had written a book.

Like, there were things that I had done in my life that I felt, you know, she should know.

And so I went to go write the letter like I usually do, maybe nine years ago.

I went to go write like a recap letter of, like, what had happened over a few years.

And then I mailed it to the usual address and it got returned to me and I was like, what?

So I did what everybody does nowadays and just headed to Facebook and found their dad and just reached out and kind of explained the situation and where their life was at and and it just kind of went from there.

So at that point, do you contact?

How to contact your offspring

I'm calling you the kids, but you're adults.

But do you do you contact your offspring, your genetic offspring, or what term?

What terminology do you all use?

I guess I should ask first.

They can speak to what I mean.

I call them hatchlings and they know that.

Hatchlings.

OK, they're really just called your your offspring, but I call them hatchlings.

I don't know Guys.

Chime.

Speaker 3

In I just.

Say that it's an egg donor.

I don't say genetic, I mean I guess it is, but I I don't say that.

I just say it's an egg donor parent or just an egg donor and that I was egg donated.

I'm not sure.

Hatchlings is pretty funny, but I had to say egg donated rather than genetic.

Yeah, I just call her our donor.

But for our siblings, I call them our siblings.

I don't really see them as any different.

Wyatt, what do you think?

I think it'll be like they've said two different things.

I have a totally different aspect considering live in their house and my girlfriend's mom did a really good job of kind of summing up the way that their relationship is, at least with me.

And I would argue that it extends to Cassie and Cody as well as this idea of step in parents.

We had a really broken homecoming into it, so it was kind of refreshing, even though it seems like a really oddball kind of family style.

That makes sense.

Yeah, I mean, families are all different.

That's definitely what this podcast is all about.

So totally get it.

OK, so, so Angela, you connect with their father?

The Story of Cassie and Cody

You learn about circumstances that are happening.

So their their mom passed away and I believe Cassie, it's been like 9 years, right?

So the last few months of her life she she was she had early onset Alzheimer's.

So the last few months of her life, I was able to spend a few times a month visiting her and walking with her and just spending time with her not.

And then there were very few instances where she knew who I was, but there were definitely two.

Unfortunately, she did pass away and the kids were teenagers.

I think Cody and Cassie weren't.

Were you guys like 12 or 13?

We were I think 13 and.

Then why it was like 15?

They were pretty young and I actually, their dad had asked me to attend the funeral, so I did.

So I actually was the first time I had seen the kids physically in a very long time.

I saw them each in the hospital when they were born, but I had not laid eyes on them in a very long time.

So I saw them then and then.

There were a few times that during that time window that first year where I took them out a few times.

I think ice skating, why it came ice skating with us.

Once Cody and Cassie and I went bowling with my son, who's around their same age.

We went to Dave and Buster's once, there was contact for a little bit and then again, this isn't their their kids.

This is not the time to be like, oh hey guys, you know, surprise.

So years go by at this point, Wyatt is what are you, 20 or 21?

21 Because there's the October of 2020.

So I see on Instagram that Wyatt is in town and I said, oh oh, I said to my husband, one of the donor kids.

One of the hatchlings is in town.

We should try to see if he wants to get lunch.

And we did.

We went and had lunch with Wyatt and Kimberly.

My oldest girl was there and we all had lunch and it was nice.

And then the next day we were having a BBQ.

So we said like, oh, if you want to come over, come to the BBQ.

He came to the barbecue and then we were doing a breakfast.

The next day he came for the breakfast and then this whole time his car is not running very well.

I asked him to stop by on Sunday to get breakfast and like, let's make sure your car's OK.

His car's OK, it makes it.

But I say OK, look, I have AAA no matter where you're at in your car, ride back.

I have enough miles on AAA that we can get you home.

So if you break down, you either come in here to me or you're going to California, depending on where in the road trip that you are.

And he was fairly early on maybe 40 miles.

So I had no choice but to tow him back to our house and we towed him back to our house.

At that time.

I don't think that I had his dad's current number.

If I had texted a couple times there and didn't get a reply.

Wyatt had called and and was talking to him but he really needed help like he didn't have a car.

So I think that he stayed at our house in the third night in.

I think it was is when I was upstairs and I was talking to my husband like this.

This kids been in our house for three days and he's been here total like 5 days in a row or something like that.

Four or five days.

And I'm just feeling weird about I know something that he doesn't know that I feel like it's pretty big.

And I my biggest fear was I had already done 23andMe and ancestry.com before all of this stuff was coming out like this.

And I know for a fact that I didn't consider that one of these kids would have this, 'cause when I had my test, they these kids were teenagers.

I don't even know if they were teenagers.

They might even still been young, 'cause I had it when it first came out.

That's when I talked to my husband and and asked what he thought about me just telling Wyatt kind of who I was.

They knew, or at least Wyatt knew, that I had helped their parents become pregnant.

But I think it was always kind of framed in a way of just helping them because I worked at the fertility clinic.

The Decision to Donate

Right.

So Wyatt, I have, I have a question for you.

What was Angela or who was Angela to you at this point?

Did you just consider her a family friend or what did you know about her?

His family friend, that's all my dad had explained it as, and I think that comes to all of us, those the same view of where we were sitting.

Yeah, she was just our mom's friend.

That's what I know.

That's it.

Yeah, I'm on the same boat.

It was just like a friend of our our parents, specifically our mom and just her.

I mean that that that's not a a dishonest answer It it truly it's because that's really where the relationship was really based was between their mom and I.

When the decision for me to donate was made was because it was her.

Specifically, I know that I wasn't aware that our parents had issues conceiving, so I I didn't even know that that was a possibility.

Like, we weren't.

I know I wasn't told like, oh, we went to fertility to like have kids.

But like, they never said anything about that.

OK, All right.

So, so Angela, you then sit quiet down and start to have a conversation.

The Conversation

And how did that go?

For me, I didn't think it was a story that I would have been telling him myself directly.

I thought for sure what was going to happen as one of them would do 23andMe and then link with me and that's how all this would come out.

And I really, really, in the moments where Wyatt had been in my house for three or four days, that's actually specifically what I didn't want to happen.

Because now I'm part of and working in the industry that I do and working so closely with donor conceived people, I know that that's what they get so upset about Is that the amount of people that have to tell the lie, right.

And I in that moment, I'm thinking like this kid has trusted me.

He's in my house.

His car's broken down.

I'm going to have to help him get home, whatever that looks like.

He's clearly struggling with life it things are hard and you know what?

Yeah, I I'm just going to tell him and then whatever ramifications come of that, I I I'll live with.

There's nothing legally there to stop me from saying anything.

There's like no NDA.

There's nothing like that.

No contract, no nothing.

I just felt like I don't want, I don't want to be part of the group that didn't tell.

So I just did.

I just said that, you know, hey, you know, you think that people are brought in your life for a reason.

And I said this this conversation right now for me started 23 years ago, 22 years ago.

And I know that you know I helped your mom like, but I worked in the fertility clinic and I said, but I actually helped your mom by giving her my egg.

And you could just see why it's brain like it's all matriculating like through what what is it?

What what does that mean?

And I remember him being clearly shocked and him just sitting there for a second and all that was there was my husband, me and my daughter and Wyatt.

And Wyatt just looking down at the counter and watching him think and say something to the effect of, like, my mom's not here, but like my genetic parent or mom or parent or something along those lines is alive.

And I was like, that's not how.

OK, Yes.

And then he turned to Kimmy and said, and you're my sister.

My daughter was like, yeah.

And my husband.

Now if you hear my husband tell this story, he tells it significantly better than me or Wyatt because he watched it all and he was just like, this is like the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life.

And it took a while, like.

And then he was still in the house for like two or three more days.

And so then we did do 23andMe so that it could confirm him because it, you know, I'm just like a person.

Like I could have been lying, I suppose.

And then I left it on Wyatt's, if you wanted to tell his siblings, because for me, Wyatt was 21, the twins were 19, at least I told the one sitting in my house and who is going to be in my house?

And in the end he did.

He ended up being with us I think for a week and and now he was with us.

So I it was the right thing to do for me and at this point.

OK, Wyatt, you have been in your family friend is what is what you think in their home for a few days and then Angela sits you down and tells you that she was your egg donor.

The emotional aftermath of finding out that Angela was Wyatt’s egg donor

What was your reaction when you got that information?

My, my first reaction was I was sitting there.

She said it like, I donated an egg to your parents.

And I was like, OK, she was like, you get what that means.

And I was like, I got it.

And then I just kind of sitting there on the stool like it.

I got it.

I understood the Super basic idea behind it.

And then it just kind of started to sink and I was like, oh, OK, but not knowing how to put it because still in today's point, like there is no word to describe the relationship between donors and donor conceived offspring.

So I think I'd explained it as the genetic, the genetics mom half.

And when I did, when I did look at Kimmy, Kimmy was my half sister.

And it was just a super weird, complex little shock and awe.

But I was like still not entirely sure.

But then I remember also sitting there after sunk in a little bit and I was like, you know, a lot of the a lot of the little things in my life make sense.

One of them is I'm color blind.

Nobody on my mom's side of the family is color blind.

But it's one of those things is that's an X related trait.

That is a trait that you can only get from your mom's half and my mom's family.

Nobody was colored.

That was the first one that.

And we have an older brother, his name's Wade.

And we look alike, but we don't look enough alike that you would have assumed that we were all from the same parents.

So I always used to make the joke where Wade's from the milkman.

Well, in fact we're we're from the milk lady and it's he's actually the love child kind of thing.

Not saying that our parents don't love us.

They loved us enough to pay for us kind of thing.

So at this point, does it register for you like you are not biologically related to your mother who has passed away?

The Gravity of Being Not Biologically Relative to My Mother

Is there any gravity around that or were you in just complete shock?

I think it's yo you're going to get different answers from the three of us.

To me, it wasn't a huge difference because at the at that point in my life, I had realized already that like, family is not determined solely by blood.

And I may not have been genetically related to my mom, but that that's my mom.

There was no.

I mean, there's no getting around it.

And that answer will stay the same between the three of us.

Is our mom's still our mom, regardless of who we're genetically related to?

Absolutely.

And that's my stance as well.

And that is actually something that is super important to me.

In any time someone hears about us or this, they have a mom, she is no longer here, but that is their mother.

And like I have a wall of old pictures in my house.

That's the older generations, like older photos and there is a family photo of theirs with all of their kids.

That was one of the Christmas cards that we got.

Actually, I think there's two up there because that's important to me because one, I wouldn't have donated if it was anyone else.

I don't think it was specifically the relationship that I had with their mom.

And two, she's their mom.

She.

Did all the work.

I I like.

I get to enjoy these, like really cool adults.

People ask me frequently, like what it It's not motherly.

That's not the emotion.

I can't.

A big sister is probably the closest that comes to it.

Maybe like a aunt, I don't know.

But it's definitely not a parent.

Yeah, I mean a step.

In parent would be kind of Wyatt's girlfriend's mom.

When I met her, I was just like, I don't know I'm their egg donor.

Like I don't like what do you say she was like step in parent and I was like, OK, but he does live with us and it is different And he's part of We have a very full house right now.

We have 3 three generations, 3 generations under one home, 3 familial generations 4 societal generations under one home.

So, OK, so Wyatt, then you are given the power to tell your siblings, the responsibility to tell your siblings, and everyone is laughing right now for.

Wyatt’s Sisters

Those who are not.

Listening here.

No.

So.

We just just just like we got the side of Angela telling you and then you received it.

Now I want to hear how you told them and how they received it.

So how did you tell your siblings?

So I got like, I got home and Cassidy was you weren't living in the house at that point.

No, She had already moved out with her boyfriend.

So Cody was home, I told Cody, and it wasn't out of the flu.

It's a pretty normal thing to go get McDonald's.

It wasn't.

No, no, it was.

I was coming home from Arizona as well.

I I was already out there with my, Could you use my?

Friend Annie No.

No, no, you picked me up from the airport.

That's what you told me.

Yeah, I was.

I was getting picked up from the airport.

You know, I I, I'm with my brother in the car, and he is white as a ghost.

He is pale.

And I'm like, oh, my, because he he's he's just like, you know, really nervous.

Like he wants to maybe tell me something.

And I was just confused.

And then like, this is where you can pick up why I've been like, again.

I'm.

I'm getting the airport.

I'm like, what's up, man?

It's like 8:00 PM It's like late.

And why?

It's just like like what's what's going on?

And So what did you say, Wyatt?

I gave a basic rundown of it in a broken fashion, and then Cody and I and Cassidy's going to swear on her life that it it was all my choice.

But Cody also agreed to hold off on telling Cassidy, because Cassidy would have lost her mind, and she definitely would have lost her mind had she found out through 23andMe or ancestry.com any other genetic testing sites.

The moment Cody found out

So I think it was like 2 weeks later, we were all going to McDonald's again, not out of the ordinary.

We were all going to McDonald's.

And Cody and I were joking.

Like, yeah, what if we were the milkman?

Like.

And then we dropped the bomb.

Oh, OK, so you guys were joking around?

The first day we went to McDonald's and we were joking around.

The second day we went to McDonald's and you're like, oh, you know, Angela, you know, she was like in the medical field or whatever.

And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're fine.

And he's like, well, she's our donor.

And I was like, you're crazy.

You're crazy.

Like like there's no.

Possible way.

And then I get a text like, oh, Cody knows and I was like what?

I thought we were waiting for 23 of me so that you could show, but but in the end, when they told me, Cassie knew.

Then I just started texting.

I think Cassie and I texted for several hours that first.

Time.

So Cody, when you found out you sat with that for two weeks about how were you feeling as you were kind of processing all this?

Well, one of my brother told me I was in a really weird spot like like flying back from Arizona.

I like, I more or less just like just broke up with my girlfriend.

So I was just already like emotionally kind of weird kind of Gray, like very meek.

But when I, like, found out and I I still think even to this day, I I would think it it didn't really change a lot for me.

I I think I was even cracking jokes.

I was like I was like oh does that not mean we're like we're not like Swiss like can we not enjoy like chocolate as much or something And and truly like I I I have this belief that it it didn't really for me and I know this is not for every egg donor I I think we all have three you know from Wyatt, Cassidy and I we have very three different opinions about how we feel about this.

For me, it it, it changed not a lot.

It was just kind of, I treat them as almost like a a third cousin, like a very distant relationship.

But like, I guess we're technically family.

So for me, when I was sitting in that car with that kind of like, I was just like, oh, interesting, Sure.

I had a few clicks right there, like in my head and I'm like, oh, well, doesn't that make Ian, which was Angela's son, who I've hung out with in real life?

We were kind of friends online sometimes played some video games.

I was like, oh, well, does that make that, you know, our our brother?

And they're like, yeah, I'm like, oh.

Cool Cassidy, How did you feel when you found out and you're the last to know and and how did that hit you?

How did it hit Cassidy?

I was a little upset that they had waited like 2 weeks to tell me because I feel like that's kind of a big thing.

I should have known as soon as Cody knew.

And it was also just the way they dropped it on me was just so confusing because we literally just talked the night before, like as a joke.

I thought it was just a joke, but I was definitely tripping out for like a week straight because, like, I everything kind of felt like a lie.

Essentially.

Like, I felt like I was lied to in some ways.

Like, I still love my mom and dad.

Like they're my parents through and through.

But, like, it still hurt to know that they had kept that for so long because, like, at that point I'm like 19.

Like, I've lived the whole life and gone through so many things and like, didn't have a mother figure for so long.

So, like, to know that I sort of have a mother figure now.

It's like, I don't know, I was tripping out.

Like, I don't really see her as a mom necessarily.

I see her as like a cool aunt.

I was very shocked.

I was like, you know, 'cause I live with my boyfriend.

So I like for like the whole week.

I was just talking to my boyfriend about it.

And it was like, this is crazy.

Like, this is absolutely insane.

There.

I would have never expected it, But at the same time, it kind of was like a relief because our mom's disease is genetic, early onset is genetic.

And for me, as like the only girl in the family, I always felt like I was going to get it.

So I was kind of trying to fast track my life a little bit and like get everything I want to do out of the way while I'm young.

So knowing that I don't have that.

Gene.

Like immediately was like, OK, I can relax a little.

Like, I know I'm not going to get it, you know, and I took the 23 meet as well and like, it's not fair.

So for me, that was like a big part of it.

And So what happens next?

I mean, you all seem to have different relationships with Angela now, Cassidy, you said she's like a a cool aunt.

Angela's Relationship with Cassidy

How did how did your relationship grow to that point?

At first I was a little nervous to talk to her about it, 'cause I honestly had no clue where to start.

And like, I had questions, but like, I didn't even know where to begin with those questions.

So I think Wyatt actually told her that I wanted to talk to her and she reached out to me and.

Started.

And the first question was funny.

It was like, am I, am I still German?

We, we, we all cared very much.

We were very much like were they still German?

This was the.

Most important part clearly for.

Us it was.

And what's the answer?

Are you?

OK, very good I.

Don't know why they're saying us.

I couldn't have cared less if we were German or not.

This is not an US thing.

This is a Cassie encoding.

Thing Well, it was very important.

It was very important.

And I think for Cassie, our first sets of conversations were kind of so Cassie, my my children that I birth did not get any musical or artistic talent.

None.

I did not.

I have none.

My father though, learned how to play something like crazy 7 instruments on his own.

He can play the piano, the saxophone, harmonica, the guitar, the all kinds of things.

What?

Cassie can play the ukulele and she's culps and does all kinds of like artistic things.

And I'm an aunt affair.

So the conversation really was like showing her carvings that my grandpa did and paintings that my aunt did and talk about those type of things.

And that's just where it started.

And my my oldest daughter and Cassie hit that, hit it off pretty pretty instantly.

And so I think that kind of helped.

And then I just am.

I'm an easy adult to call and ask things.

They, they, I mean, I hope they know like there's literally nothing they couldn't ask that.

I wouldn't answer that.

Whether it has to do with me.

Family, life, it's hard.

Life's hard at 50.

You can't even imagine how hard it is at 21 or 22 or 24.

Sometimes you just don't even know what you're supposed to do.

And I tend to, I tend to feel like I feel not so much for Cody, our our relationship for me.

And from my stance it's a very casual and I like to give him a hard time.

He's funny here.

My yeah, that's my That's really gonna go.

Next is like, yeah, Cody for you.

What would you define your relationship with Angela now?

You said not a lot changed and you don't necessarily feel as close to Angela as your siblings do.

What would you define your relationship like now?

And were you curious to, like, build any more of a relationship after you learned the truth?

In the beginning, I was not really like I, you know, again, I was at a weird time where I was just like, you know, I got to focus myself for a second.

So it like I didn't have that that want to explore that relationship.

I was really thinking more for myself at the time.

But and like, now it's kind of extended to like, it's more 'cause, you know, like we're here, we're doing this podcast.

And I think, I guess I have a vaguely similar stance of like, oh, well, they're like a cool uncle.

Or, you know, I almost treat them in in like the best way I defined it is almost like since I don't have a girlfriend anymore, I used to do everything, like all these family events with them.

I've just now switched it over to their schedule.

So and now I'm just like, oh, well, now they do.

Every now and then they'll do something for Christmas or something for Halloween or like some kind of in between holiday or just just some kind of general weekend party and I'll go out there and I'm all OK with that.

Like, you know, like all their family and like the the, you know, like the egg sister, half sister we have, they're they're cool.

All the little young kids that are just little terrorists that come get me when I'm there, but yeah.

You're a little, a little more involved now.

Slightly more involved.

We're going to love Cody to death like we're going to love Cody to death if it's the last thing that we do.

And so, no, it's a lot of teasing and a lot of like going back and forth.

For me, I love how you you kind of are.

You meet everyone where they are and you have different relationships, and that's OK.

So, Wyatt, you live with Angela.

How Wyatt and Angela met

So how did your relationship with her grow to the point of where you now live there?

I think the first big thing is I was visiting GCU when I first met them, GCU at the time and I can confirm the right choice to what school I wanted to go to, where I wanted to be at that point.

That goal of getting to GCU was way too far out of the price range, and after finding everything out and coming down for Thanksgiving month later, so it was definitely a really cool thing when she had opened the invitation to stay with them while I was at school.

So I knew he wanted to go to the school.

I knew that it was out of the price point.

I wanted to know what he needed to get where he wanted to be.

And so I was like, well, just live here.

You can live rent free and if that's what you want, But I offered it like just we had like one night.

I think we stayed up till like 2 in the morning talking just about life.

And that's what I said and kind of I try to live my life with, what is that saying?

I don't even know who said it, who said, like, you know, when you go be what you needed as a kid and I didn't have a lot of direction.

I had really a really great mom, but not a lot of direction.

And so I'm.

I really do meet all of them, wherever it is they need me to be whatever that looks like.

In his case, I knew that if I let him live here rent free, he could go to the school that he needed to go to, to complete the dreams that he wanted.

And I know that his mom would want me to help him like that.

Like, I don't have to ask.

I don't have to think about it.

Like, she would have been OK with that offer.

I just really believe that.

And I probably would make that offer to my best friend's kids, just kind of who I am.

But that's that's how he got there.

And I don't think you came like it was still a while.

No, I didn't.

I didn't end up moving in until about shoot seven or eight months later.

Yeah, it was in like July.

It was, yeah.

It was the weekend before their annual poker party.

Yeah, we have a poker party every year, which is actually this year.

So they're all coming out here this weekend.

So we'll all be together Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

Awesome.

And and so that's where that started.

But go ahead.

Sorry, I just wanted it like I I know it might seem weird that I offered to allow him to stay there, but that's kind of where my thought process was as to why did I make that offer?

Was it my place to make that offer?

There's no judgment I'm because I think like we talked about families are so unique and the relationships that we form and.

You know what?

Nobody.

Gets to decide exactly and and nobody gets to decide what your relationship has to be.

And I think it's so interesting how all three of you are kind of in these different positions.

And so I was just curious how you got to a point of, you know, moving in and and so how would you define your relationship with Angelo Wyatt?

How Angelo and Rob met

Well, I definitely came in on rough footing.

My background with my dad was not phenomenal.

I love him.

He's still my dad.

But we had our rough spots and I know Cassie and Cody got front row Tickets to watching mine and my dad's relationship, I don't know, take place.

So when I came here it was a lot of cold shoulder.

Keep to myself.

People don't need to know what I'm doing because it's not going to matter in the long run.

And it's a totally different family style in this house because it wasn't necessarily Angela that had sat me down and been like, hey, this is what we do here.

It was Rob at work because I worked with him and he sat me down.

He goes like, like you're you're living in our house, like you're part of this family, and like you need to act like it.

Slowly but surely I got into the Gears of I just let them know where I'm at at this point.

And it's to me, the way my girlfriend's mom had explained it as a step in parent.

That's where that relationship comes in, because they're not step parents, They're not my they're not my parents, but they are a like, they're just parental figures that have guided me to where I am now.

And I can tell you that is 1000 times further than I ever would have gotten if I would have stayed in San.

Diego that's amazing.

That's really amazing.

And Rob is my husband and he worked with my husband and so that's who that is.

OK, now, I don't mean to switch gears to like a somber tone, but I'm curious how the three of you felt about the fact that your parents didn't disclose this information to you.

How did the three of you feel about the fact that your parents didn’t disclose this information to you?

Because I know Cassidy, you you touched on something that I think a lot of people in the DNA Surprise community talk about, which is that feeling of everything is a lie.

People knew something about me that I didn't know, and that's kind of its own unique experience.

How did you all feel about that piece of it, Cody and Wyatt?

To me, I felt it was important to know me knowing it 21 versus me knowing it 16 really didn't make a difference.

So in my eyes, nothing changed.

The only difference is now when I talk about medical background, I have the correct one.

I don't feel like I was in a rush to know.

Oh well, they should have told me sooner.

They should have done this.

My mom didn't have a choice.

She had no clue.

And my dad feared her name was going to be tarnished because of this idea that we're not genetically hers.

And it's like that.

That's never been the issue.

A big part of that was our family was very Catholic at one point, and anything unnatural in the Catholic Church is frowned upon.

So none of our family knows.

Our aunts, our uncles, cousins, nobody knew.

Our older, our oldest brother doesn't know.

Her best friends didn't know, like nobody knew.

So our dad didn't want anybody to know because he felt like not only would it ruin, like, our idea of our mom, but like it would also ruin our relationship with our family because we were all very Catholic at some point.

And so do people still not know in your family?

Yeah, I've.

I've only told, like, my mom's best friend because I felt like maybe she would have known, but she didn't.

And I also had told our nanny, 'cause we had a nanny when we were little.

But I don't think any of us have talked to our aunts or uncles, 'cause I think part of us are still kind of scared that they might react negatively to it.

Although I feel like nowadays it's we're not nearly as religious as we used to be, and that goes for all of them.

I don't think any of us are really as religious, so I feel like if they knew now, it might not be that bad.

And Cody, what about for you?

Was the lie an issue for you, or was?

I mean, you seem to have taken it in stride.

I'm kind of similar between.

I'm like the kind of in between opinion between my brother Wyatt and my sister Cassidy.

It didn't change a lot.

Like I said, like I didn't.

I didn't care.

Did I?

I mean, should I know?

Yeah, eventually.

Like I again, like with my brother's opinion, I I didn't care if I learned this at the, you know, age 6 or like 13 or something, like whatever age.

I could have found out.

I I wouldn't care.

But, you know, I do partially care that like, if there was some kind of health issue.

Yeah, it's probably more you should definitely tell your kids something like that.

Like my sister trying to fast track life with Alzheimer's.

I can definitely put a burn it on and it's like buy something.

You should mention like I don't have to worry about that.

And I know it's kind of hard for a parent to be like, well, Cassie, don't worry about it.

And then Cassie's like, well, what do you mean?

Like, my mom has it and he's like.

Our dad didn't cry.

He did say, oh, it's not genetic, it's not genetic.

But like, I knew it was genetic.

He just wouldn't tell us exactly why it wasn't genetic for us.

So it's it's definitely a tough in between for a parent to explain to a kid.

So I'm I'm very in between.

It's like you know you should maybe try to tell your kid if there's any serious health issues that like that's something they should know.

But like honestly you can tell your kid whenever, never.

I mean like nowadays it's like we we have to ancestry.com where you just find out this information and it's it's pretty open nowadays.

Telling Kids About Fertility

Right, right.

Now, Angela, you've been working in the fertility industry for a long time.

At the time when they were conceived.

Was the advice tell your kids or don't or.

No, it was actually quite the opposite.

So what I will say that the industry that I have have worked in for so long they they would encourage intended parents not to tell that was the actual conversation.

So I will say luckily that that that tide is changing probably not as fast as I would like it to.

And I do a lot of advocacy work with this Society of ethics and aid donation and surrogacy and I also do a lot of advocacy work with donor conceived people.

So that is something for me that I always knew of them, but knowing them and interacting with them, and I mean Cassie fast starting her life is insane.

But I would venture to guess that that happens more often than we people would like to talk about.

It's a difficult conversation for parents and but you have so many difficult conversations with your kids like the least complicated is to explain a sperm or egg donor especially once you let go of any religious hang up you may have or or ethical hang up that you might have.

And I do believe that with them their their mom kept in contact for a long time like she knew for a long time.

What I didn't know is that she did have early onset Alzheimer's.

I didn't know that her mind was slipping.

The letters and cards just stopped and I was in a place in life where that was OK.

I was 27 years old raising four children.

I was really busy.

I would do it all over again, that's for sure.

I don't think I would do it any sooner.

Like I they're they were all over 18.

And I think that if I didn't see why it's struggle that was happening at the time that I may not have been as because why it was really struggling, knew what the right thing to do was.

And and I know this sounds nuts because not everybody believes in this type of thing, but for me there was a huge push from the connection that I had with their mom.

Does that make sense?

So what is next for all of you?

What is next for Cassidy and her family?

You mentioned a poker game that you have so.

Every year, yeah, we do a Princess and poker party.

This is the 6th annual and I think this is the third that all of them have attended.

So it's always a lot of fun.

It's always our friends.

It's always our family.

And my family is very much what I have built.

So yes, I have a mother that I am close to and I adore and I have a brother the same way I have 1/2 sister and I have a step sister that I grew up with.

But I've also built my family with my husband and our very, very, very blended, very unusual family that yes, we probably probably could have a podcast on our family.

Yeah, you really could.

I'm curious to hear from.

Let's start with Cassidy, I asked this of everyone who is a donor conceived person on the podcast because I think it's really important to center your voices and your opinions on donor conception.

What are your thoughts on the donor conception industry?

So I'm curious to know what are your thoughts overall like on, on the donor conception industry, the fertility industry and are there any changes that you think that that should take place within the industry?

I think that there's definitely a lot to work on in the ethics part of like, kids knowing and not knowing and like where the boundaries are, because there still really isn't any clear boundaries necessarily.

Like, is she allowed to reach out to us when we turn 18?

Is she not like, should she be allowed to like, I don't know.

And I think the anonymous stuff needs to just go away because like realistically it's not going to happen anymore.

It's way too easy to take adna test at the end of the day like I was planning to at some point and I would have found out and been very confused if I didn't know.

I think that we should have known or at least been given correct medical background, because now there's things that I know that I wouldn't have, like developing allergies.

Like, Angela developed allergies at my age, and now I'm starting to show symptoms of developing allergies.

And like, I would have never known if I'd never talked to her because our parents wouldn't, didn't tell us.

But at the same time, like, I love my parents very much, they're still my parents.

I just wish there was more honesty around it and I think that's kind of where things need to change in the industry is just I think they need to look more at the kids point of view rather than just the donor and the parents, 'cause I feel like that's where the focus has been for so long, but now like all of us are, kids are growing up and we like, care like.

Yeah, absolutely.

Wyatt, do you have any opinions on the fertility industry largely?

Wyatt’s thoughts on the fertility industry

And it's OK if you don't, but just want to ask.

I agree with the like ending the anonymous donation kind of thing.

I also do believe in the idea of parental rights, at least until we turn 18, of whether or not to choose whether you're going to tell your kid or not before they turn 18.

Only just a legality thing.

And I do believe in parental rights for a number of reasons, but I would have liked the proper medical history and that I think that was the biggest thing is not having that when we're putting down our medical history from our mom's side.

And that's not it.

That's where I feel like I was faulted.

But other than that, like, yeah, anonymous donation should be gone.

But the choice of parents to tell before 18?

I think that that's it still up in the air, 'cause there's just so much going on in the world.

And Cody, do you have an opinion on on all this stuff?

Yeah for common occurrence middle opinion.

I I definitely believe that the animated E of some of this kind of detail for like genetics should be exposed and whether that be at like maybe an age before 1816 or something. 16's almost like a pretty good age.

But I I definitely know that there's that's a, you know, that's for smarter people and politics to kind of go into that dynamic and maybe a little bit more research and talk to, you know, like the donors later, you know, down the line.

Like definitely having an open conversation to see what we can like do for the politics of this kind of stuff would be cool to see.

And this field and I guess that there's like one thing specifically I study social media marketing and I've definitely seen a couple like, you know, you just see a couple advertisements whether that be on YouTube or like like Tiktok that they're saying the egg donation is just like a freeway to get the back.

Almost like they're like, you know, there's one specific ad.

I was like, get your freeze Tezzy.

You're Tezzy, you know, a Tesla.

And I thought that was a little gross and that the targeted ad was towards maybe somebody that's like just about to turn 18.

Like, this is like a very quick and it's like the quick and easy way to make money, which it definitely shouldn't be like that.

It definitely should be promoted as something that, you know, you really have to think about and that it's not something as easy as just, oh, get the bag, get that 50K bag, bag, just drop a couple eggs.

I mean, nothing serious, clearly, but I would definitely like to see some change in some advertisements.

Like it's it's something that's a very weird thing to advertise, but they.

Definitely should not advertise at a certain way to to kind of kids being like it, being a quick way to get money kind of scheme.

Yeah, I That's a really good call out because even when I was in college many years ago, it was something that was targeted towards young female students.

And then now with social media being even more prominent than it was when I was in college, there are a lot of really wild ads out there targeting women for egg donation.

So that's a really good point, that there probably should be some regulation around that.

You mentioned that you're involved in advocacy now around that.

Advocacy for egg donation

So what are you?

What are you doing?

So Wyatt and I have actually sat on a panel at the Society of Ethics and Egg Donation and Surrogacy.

About a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago at this point was the very first panel that had happened where it was the donor and the donor can see person around the panel.

So that was the first step into it.

And White can to attest the the, the craziness that that brought to us for two days when we were at the conference.

And then so I also speak and do that type of thing at those conferences And then with the donor conceived people their their counsel that they have.

I am currently working on doing some egg donor education items and also recipient education items.

Because the truth is, is this much like what Cassie said, we don't really talk about the the donor conceived people, but not that I make excuses for that, but what I will tell you is that when I started in this industry, I remember the office being given a pizza party because we reached a 10% pregnancy rate.

So 90% of the time you were telling people they were not pregnant no matter what we were doing.

That's not the case anymore, and it's really not the case when you're talking about a donor, donor donor egg, donor sperm or anything like that.

Most of the time they become pregnant.

So now we have to change the conversation.

But we have some ketchup to do here, and I'm hoping that anonymous egg donation eventually will be gone completely, because I think it's wrong and that we really just do better for the kids.

But what I know is that I'm going to do better for the kids that I help create, and I want to make sure they have a safe state to talk about it or not talk about it.

They can be a part of it or not be a part of it.

I want them to know that they have a voice.

And this story is weird.

It's weird that there's no way around it.

Our story is weird.

But if our story is what brings forth change and it saves a whole section of people from being lied to or a donor doing something she's like didn't think about because she wanted to buy a Tesla, you know what I mean?

That's why I don't mind sharing the story.

Yeah, What advice do you have for parents who are keeping Adna Surprise from their child or children?

Advice for parents who are keeping adna surprise from their children

Let's start with Wyatt.

It's important to understand that although your fears are valid, they're not.

They're more than likely not to come true.

Like the idea of parents names being tarnished.

And there was a doctor on that panel that spoke and argued that fear is not an issue for the parents that have to tell the kids.

And of course I had something to say because I am the example that he didn't want.

I am the example where the parent was scared that we were going to tarnish our mom's name.

So to understand and emphasize to your kids, when you choose to tell them that although they're not necessarily related to whichever parent it is, that it doesn't make them any less of your parent.

Cody.

I don't know if I have something as nearly introspective as why it's approach to it.

Again, it's a tough conversation and you know, it also comes like there's a lot of different kind of spectrums where you can like is the parent like a young parent and like this is a much harder conversation or are they old and traditional and is that the reason that's hard.

But you know, like, maybe I, I think it's simply something you should be honest about and that, yes, it's going to be a hard conversation, a weird conversation, a kind of confusing one too.

But definitely, you know, come into the conversation, you know, being open and being honest and that it's not something that you're trying to lie about.

It's just that there could be like a lot of other circumstances.

But here I am today and I hope you can understand my reasoning and we can come to like a conclusion that's hopefully a good one.

Cassidy, what advice do you have?

I think obviously, like, you should just be honest and 'cause I feel like the longer you, the longer you wait, and the more information you withhold, the more upset they're gonna be when they find out.

Like, just explain why it wasn't told.

And like, don't get mad when they have questions and want to know more about the other person.

Like for us, like as the donor kids, like you know, we should be allowed to ask questions and feel like it's OK to ask questions.

And like, I feel like parents should just listen and have a conversation and, like, respect, like our opinions on it, as well as, like, we can respect their opinions on it and just come to a mutual understanding of why it's happened and where you want to go from there instead of making it like a topic you can't talk about.

Because, like with our dad, it's still something we can't talk about.

He doesn't want us to talk about it.

He doesn't want to talk about it.

It's just something we don't talk about.

But there's still so many questions that I'd like to ask, you know?

So I feel like parents should just be comfortable with the fact that the kids are going to have questions and just be ready for those questions to come.

Angela, do you have any advice for parents?

My advice is don't lie.

So my advice is don't lie.

Tell them from the very beginning and tell them in appropriate ways.

The best example I can give for this is I remember when I had I was mid egg donation and I was drawing a patient's blood and I was telling them that I was doing a cycle and I was like day five or six of shots or something like that.

And she had her two year old there and she was like, Oh my God, what a gift that you're giving this family.

And I I it did, it didn't register that way to my 25 year old brain.

I don't, I don't know why didn't register as a gift.

I don't.

I don't know what it registered as, but it wasn't like a gift.

And she sat there and talked to her two year old.

She was like, yeah, she's gonna be an Angel like your Angel like the Angel that helped mommy have you.

And I was stunned at the time.

You never saw that.

And she was telling this kid from the beginning there was no, there was no nothing.

Of course, obviously like the kid doesn't know what she's saying right then, just no idea.

So that is my advice because you are their parents and they love you no matter what.

If these three would have found out when they were teenagers from their dad or really young with their mom, it would make 0 impact on their relationship with their parents.

That I do believe, that's the only advice I have is tell them.

Tell them.

Because it's a It's like a secret.

You're caring.

That's not good for you.

And then this one is for the the three.

We'll start with Cassidy.

What advice do you have for someone who just found out that their donor conceived?

I know it's kind of trippy at first because everything just doesn't like everything's starting to make sense and not make sense at the same time, so you're going to be confused.

But like if you do have access to talking to the donor, I would take advantage of it and like communicate and ask those questions that you have and ask your parents.

Like they might not be happy that you know or maybe they are happy you know.

Either way, just ask whatever comes up and don't be afraid to ask.

Don't like close yourself off from everyone after finding out.

Like just do your thing like if you got questions asked.

Cody, what advice do you have?

It's interesting.

It's a weird feeling.

Like my sister said, it's it's a lot of things don't make sense and all the things that do make sense.

And that's a very real feeling that it's a it's something that you definitely, for yourself, have to go through.

Be conscious of yourself.

Don't pull away from friends, family, you know.

Have that conversation with someone and if you are lucky enough to have that conversation with your parents, a chance to reach out to your donor parents.

If that's something you would like to do and have available, you should go ahead and take those.

Don't be afraid for help.

Don't be afraid to ask and have an open discussion about this, because it's definitely something that's very hard depending on how old or young you are or it really doesn't matter the age.

It's definitely something that's hard to do by yourself and it's something you should definitely talk about.

So don't be closed off.

Be good with yourself and you know, ask.

It's OK to ask for help.

Wyatt, what advice do you have for someone who just found out that their donor conceived?

Don't be afraid to ask questions.

And again, it'd be the same thing as I would have told the parents to understand that your parents are still your parents and it's not.

The donor is your parent.

Angela Cassidy, Cody Wyatt.

Thank you so much for joining me today and sharing your story.

I really appreciate your openness in discussing this still somewhat taboo conversation, and I just wish you the best and have fun at poker night.

Thanks again to Angela, Cody, Cassidy, and Wyatt for sharing your stories.

If you have adna surprise that you'd like to share, submit your story at dnasurprisespodcast.com.

Until next time, this episode of DNA Surprises was hosted, produced and edited by me, Alexis Ourselt.

It was mixed and mastered by Josh Ourselt of Siren Recording