Bonus Episode – Interview with Leeanne R. Hay

This transcript was generated automatically. Its accuracy may vary.

Speaker 1

The TNA surprise Journey can be shocking, upsetting and

Speaker 2

isolating, but you're not alone and there is hope connection

and Community are powerful tools as we process.

And

he'll

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and I think that I understand they want to sell DNA kits and they don't want to scare away their customer base by the same token.

I don't think they're being truthful with their product.

Imagine spinning into a tube, sending off your DNA, and unknowingly turning your life upside down for me and thousands of others.

This is our reality, I'm your host.

So sour salt in July of 2021, I discovered that I am an NP e.

Someone who has experienced a non paternal event.

In other words my biological father isn't who I thought he was this podcast shares.

The journeys of people who were shocked by a DNA Discovery.

Mostly through Modern DNA testing.

We're telling the stories of NP he's adoptees and donor conceived people and their families.

This is DNA surprises.

Surprise, it's a bonus episode in recognition of DNA.

Day on April 25th, we're dropping a special episode with author.

Lee Anne are, hey, who recently released her book and PE a story guide for unexpected DNA discoveries.

In this episode, we take a deeper dive into some of the things.

Lee Anne wrote about from why she wrote the book to NP.

He's in the media to how consumer DNA testing companies.

Should be held accountable to their customers.

If you haven't read her book, I've included links for where to purchase it in the show notes.

Thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

Leanne, welcome to the podcast Leanne, so happy to have you

here.

I'm very happy to be here.

Alexis

you wrote a book that came out last year in 2021 and PE a story guide for unexpected, DNA, discoveries.

And I know that this Comes from a personal place.

So can you just share a little bit about what led you to write this book?

When I made my Discovery in September of 2017, being a freelance journalist?

The first thing I tried to do is find support and research online to help me handle this because I had never known anyone that was in this situation before or experienced this.

And the more I researched, the more I kept coming up empty-handed.

So, I started continuing on with my weekly journaling and kind of ramped it up.

It started taking lots of notes about, not only my thoughts and feelings but also kind of my frustrations about what I couldn't find or what I look.

Couldn't obviously find help for about three to four months into my Discovery.

I found a few articles online and that kind of gave me some hope that there were other people out there that were like me going through this as well.

As I sought out, theissens to therapist for some counseling and fortunately she was experienced with other misattributed parental events within her patients.

So she was able to understand very quickly what I was experiencing and the all the different feeling

Of

anger and sadness, and frustration and in a sense, some kind of a relief of understanding questions from my past.

That now all of a sudden made sense to me.

And then I started joining different message boards, private message, boards and groups for npes and began talking mostly to those in private conversations about how to craft a letter.

To a new half sibling or a new parent or even to need the existing birth mother to help people get through it in a non-confrontational way.

So, I started keeping notes on that and then I realized that what I had accumulated had turned into kind of a memoir so to speak and I thought to myself, well, that's great.

But, you know, who am I and isn't this subject?

We more about all of us together as opposed to just me and my experience, I have the greatest respect for those who have written Memoirs and the work that they have done.

But for me, I wanted it to be something more than just my story.

I felt that I was becoming the repository for lots of npe stories and I wanted them to be told and I also wanted them to be framed in a concept of Hope.

Hope and support and that there were resources out there, because there are so many variables to be an MP e that those who are not never realize.

So, I started writing, I started writing my stories and their stories, and getting permissions from people who had published different charts and finding out different people who were doing research, and then I was curious about, how did we This whole MP thing kind of start or what made a legitimacy if that term is even around anymore.

How did that come into history of, you know, where we are today?

And 21st century North America.

And these were the stories that I found and then I started writing about and then the book materialized from all of that, wow, you kind

of touched on this and I know you share your story in detail in the book.

Book.

And so I encourage anyone who's interested in learning more about Leon Story to, to read her book to learn more about that but one of the things that you just touched on was all of the different situations that can lead to NPCs.

And I found that really interesting when I, when I read it because it's true.

There are so many situations and all of us kind of have different paths to how we make our discoveries, and how we came to exist.

Can you touch on kind of what some of those situations are?

Barf that maybe people don't think

about sure.

And the the way that I started quantifying that was from an exchange that I had with another writer at a conference and we were talking about, you know, what are you what are you currently working on it?

At the time I was working on this book and I told her I was, you know, working on a book about unexpected DNA discoveries and when in my case when you find out that your dad is not your biological father and she said to me in a very snarky way well I guess it's going to be a really short. that book and I was in offended incensed and angered, because I knew that that was a very closed-minded type of generalized Outlook, because the world and our families didn't know about all of these

circumstances, that could create an N PE, for instance, in my situation, my mother had a long-term Are with my biological father in other circumstances.

Birth mothers can be victims of sexual assault and have kept that from their spouse and their family.

They can be young women who were victims of incest and never disclosed it to their child.

The circumstances of them being born.

There are situations where a couple would would decide to or need to have a donor conception and believe that it was going to be the husband's gamete sperm that was going to be a part of the the process.

And it turns out that there was a donor fraud and another person's sperm was used and that creates not only the trauma in the end PE, but also in the in the parents of the npt is well, there is situations where a couple is infertile.

But one will decide not to tell the other about it and will seek out donation privately.

And there is no control over whether or not the information that is on an intake.

Form is accurate or legitimate and deception will be on one of the parents.

Then of course the npe the person, the child finds out about it when they take a consumer DNA test, there are just there are bunches and bunches of Variables.

There are families that have covered of incest, where the child fought that their grandmother, their mother was there, grabs actually their grandmother, there are aunt, was actually their sister and brother was actually an uncle was actually a father.

So, there are all kinds of scenarios.

The thing that unites all of us, whether it's because of donor conception adoption, Was of consensual or non-consensual sexual encounters.

Is that all of us as adults, have taken a DNA test and found out that we were lied to that.

We were deceived and sometimes it was more than just our immediate biological parents, sometimes it was an entire family knew that this child, who is now an adult was Opted or was a donor conceived baby, or there was an illicit relationship.

That was known about and it is pervasive in every area of society.

It happens in wealthy families.

It happens in poor families, it happens in black brown white families.

It happens all over the world where DNA tests are sold and you can, Access the information.

Yeah, it really does not these events.

Do not discriminate by any means.

You're right.

Thank you for, for going into all of those different circumstances.

So how many of us are there

roughly the in the past few weeks there has been new information that has been that was funded by the National Institutes of Health.

Through the Baylor College of Medicine at Baylor University Tea and their bioethics and policy department and they put out a million emails through one of the DNA companies, one of the smaller DNA companies to their members and they within eight days, they had 30,000 responses and they shut down the survey because they didn't need any more for a critical review of the statistics of how you can extrapolate, what an accurate number is.

You actually only need about a thousand responses.

Wow.

But they had they had 30,000 to deal with ones.

They culled through that of incomplete, you know, surveys and all you know, odds and ends like that they were able to get it down to 23,000 and what they found out through this study was five percent of all people who took a DNA test consumer DNA test.

Okay?

No, this doesn't include Someone who tests for medical reasons or someone who goes to test specifically on a lab for paternity test, this is just through commercial DNA tests that they sell on TV that have been advertised on TV and social media and whatnot.

So, it's the number is five percent.

So if you're looking at, if you've got a group of 100 people, that means five out of every 100.

People are going to be NP.

Yeah.

And when you think about that it just in right now worldwide sales in North America of DNA kits and I just I'm working on another story right now and I just picked up these numbers as well.

The top two DNA companies together reported that they had in their database has a combined number of 40 million people, okay?

So five percent of Forty million people is two million

people.

That just seems so much higher than I would ever imagine because to be honest, when you're going through this, you feel so alone, you know, you feel like you don't know anyone else who's had this experience, but really there are so many of us

there are.

And what's interesting to me, and what I've been writing about right now, is that to me, there is this coalescing.

Of all of the smaller groups.

In other words, you've got the, you've got people who were donor conceived, who never knew about that.

Because they before DNA tests consumer, DNA tests, you've got people who were adopted, who never knew they were adopted because of consumer, DNA tests.

You've got regular old, you know, genealogy is the number to Hobby in the world.

Okay.

Yes, they've got genealogists whether they're professional or hobbyists that are also having their customers heal.

People who professionally do family histories and whatnot.

They're asking their people to do these consumer dentist and they're coming up with npes and then you have the other folks and you know, in my group where, you know, there was a consensual unknown relationship, that created my npe But what's uniting all of us, all of these groups is the fact that consumer DNA, testing has become this popular affordable commercial thing out there for people to take advantage of.

Now in your book, you cover a range of stories.

You have people contribute their stories in the book and it seems like the reactions.

Vary widely from npe to npe.

I mean, I think there's that initial shock that we all have, but then the reactions are different.

Are they seem very different in the book?

Why do you think that?

Is that the circumstances leading to the end PE or what causes people to react?

So, so differently from one another?

I think it all goes back to Mom, I think it all goes back to the birth mom and what the circumstances and variables were surrounding her at the time.

That she became pregnant with this child, because there are some there was one specific story that I remember where the parents thought they were infertile and they had gone to a fertility specialist.

And they believed that there was a process that this doctor was going to do to help her become pregnant with her husband's sperm, and it turned out that it was actually donor fraud.

And the did this doctor had used his own sperm.

Of these parents they had were honest, when she was younger saying, you know we needed some extra help Mommy and Daddy went to a doctor because we really wanted to have you and then, you know, Mommy got pregnant with you.

And then we had you were so happy and whatnot so they didn't even know.

I mean there was a part of this donor fraud that was in there.

There are others that are, you know, depends a lot on how the birth mother reacts as well.

You know, my birth mother was dead so I had But, you know, anger and on answered questions for others who have a birth mother that's still alive.

I maintain.

And what I saw in the stories of people shared with me is that however, your past relationship had been with your mother pretty much was going to determine how she was going to how you and her were going to handle that MPAA.

If your mother had been nurturing and kind and supportive, you know, raising you as a child, then she was going to in most cases Spawned with remorse and, you know, sorrow and asked, you know, apologize and hope to get Beyond it.

If your mother was it, the birthmark that was a stinker or an absentee birth mother or an abusive birth mother that wasn't going to change in her response to being told, hey, you know, I just found out that dad's not my father mmm-hmm.

So again, it's, there's a lot that we share, but there are so many intricacies.

Use and twists.

The turns to every story, that was one of the things that I wanted to make sure that people understood as well, that my book was not going to be comprehensive on every type of conceivable scenario.

But that these were the ones that were most prevalent that I had come across and that people had shared

with me.

Right.

Yeah, I mean, it really is, there are so many variables

from

the way that somebody was Was was born or conceived to how they discovered it.

One of the things as I was reading that honestly kind of gave me goosebumps was the thought of the unthought known this concept.

And if you could read a passage from there and then kind of talk about what what that means.

Because I mean I think so many of us say I kind of had this feeling, I kind of knew things were always A little off, but but we didn't put our fingers on it, right?

We didn't necessarily know that our fathers were not our biological

father's.

A significant number of npes will announce with the sense of the resigned satisfaction of decades long Quest.

I always knew I was different and ending with now I know what it is.

Bowl was his book, The Shadow of the object psychoanalysis of the on thought known is a clinical and highly technical.

Book used by professionals and Educators in psychoanalysis, it examines the concept of the unthought known in treating patients in the books.

Epilogue bolus concludes with this statement in thinking the unthought known we Ponder not simply the kernel of our true self but elements of our forbearers.

So this concept of the unthought known, is this something that you see with most The npes that you've spoken

to yes.

And it is regardless of the circumstances in the variables it's another thread that unites all of us when I was doing research on it, what when I was reviewing my notes, this was the another Common Thread that I saw that I thought was important to address because most of us kind of, you know also have the common of yeah.

When I was a kid, I just everyone thought I was just crazy or I thought I was crazy and I started Searching intuition.

And that's how I came across.

Christopher bowles's book and then did some research on him.

And the science of intuition, is study of.

It has been a legitimate study for pushing into decades now.

And I thought to myself, there's finally now validation both in the sciences and mental health, professionals that there exists, some type of a mental.

Brain activity.

That is picking up other subtle, gestures phrases, sensing emotions that consciously were not aware of.

And that, when it comes down to it, we with finding out about an MP e, there are so many of us that say, now I know why.

I she said this.

I now I know why I was treated like that.

Now, I understand, Why I always felt left out, you know, now I understand why he didn't like me.

So, there is, there is validity.

And I think that there is, you know, is another entire area at the National Institutes of Health could look into, because you've got this large group now, who has been experiencing this and I have yet to come across an N PE, who has, who has not said I, you know, I I felt that something wasn't right.

I felt in some Wasn't wrong.

Something was off here,

right?

It's like even when they were completely surprised by the npe itself, there was always something that didn't

fit, right?

That's, I mean, I think that was definitely the case for me and so many of the people that I've been lucky enough to interview for the podcast.

There's usually just something just something.

And you know I often would say hindsight is 20/20.

But when I read this, I thought, no, I knew I

didn't know deep

inside.

Yeah, I just love that concept.

So you have a ton of resources in this book for people that are unsure how to reach out and make those initial contacts and those kinds of things.

And I think that's one of the first things that people when they're on their npe Journey are unsure of is how to how to make contact.

What are just a couple of pointers that you Would have for somebody who is unsure, what to do next, they found their family, they want to contact them, but they're afraid

to 0.

The first thing you need to do is stop, take your time, breathe and try and allow yourself to sort through your feelings as well as your thoughts.

It sounds easier than it is to do.

I know that a you want answers right away, you figure, you know, I'm this many years old, I'm an adult.

You know, I want to know what's going on and the there is a sense of urgency and that is understandable.

I experienced the same sense of urgency and I know personally and I have seen other recommendations as well, that if you take your time during these first few months, not first few days, Days.

Not first few weeks but first few months, you will not regret having taken that time because the further you get into your Discovery, you will find that you sort of start adjusting to, okay?

This is the new reality now.

What am I going to do with it?

I highly recommend that people you know Journal that they write out their thoughts and if it's not, you know, writing Out on a little app on your phone or a piece of paper and a pencil or, you know, just a scrap little package of sticky notes, just to get out what you're feeling and what your thoughts are.

And to kind of give yourself a sense of control back that, you can organize your thoughts and your feelings before you say anything or do anything, because what we want most what?

BP's want most are very very basic in that an accurate medical history.

That's you know, we're talking very fundamental very important, you know piece of the puzzle here not only for yourself, but if you weren't Auntie with children, you've also been, you know, putting down for years.

The wrong familial medical history for your children as well.

So that's the most important thing. secondly, it would be nice to have some pictures, it would be nice to have the conversation to kind of put things into perspective and I think that the same fear and anxiety and anger and sadness that an npe experiences is also perhaps, not as great, but certainly can, and often does exist for quote unquote, At new family members and I encourage and Pease and I and I stand with all of us that being an MP e is unfair and you didn't ask for it.

You did nothing but be born.

That's all you did.

You were born and you lived and I understand that that it is your sense of urgency and your you know righteous need for the truth is is good and it is pure but Manatee being what it is.

Others will be scared, others will be will be angered by what by of the news and at the end of the day, the goal is to get the npe what they need and what they should have.

And if you approach it with some empathy, despite not being shown any yourself in your situation, you will be more Successful than if you go in guns blazing as they say or demanding of others.

When really they don't have to you know, show you any Humanity or any kindness there have been just so many stories that have broken, my heart of npes that were in crisis and reached out to new family members and were in their desperation for understanding Their situation who they were their identity, their medical history.

We're not as genteel, or as pathetic as they could have.

Been in understanding what the other side of the coin looks like.

So, I think it's very important and if you know you just find out, it's much easier to find things today.

Online Google and PE non-paternity Event non-parent Event, find find groups, find, you know, go on Amazon.

Put that in the search bar for books and you're going to be able to find immediate support up there and, you know, it'll get to you in two days if you're a Prime member.

So so you've got so that's got, you know, you've got that going for you because these things did not exist, only for, you know, four and a half years ago, these things didn't exist.

So you've got that, you've got social media support groups that are out there where you can join and you don't even have to say anything.

You can just kind of sit back and read and Have the comfort of knowing that you're not alone,

you know.

I just had someone reach out to me just last week asking about resources and support for people on the other side.

Are you aware of anything out there or do you have any advice for, you know, maybe the wife of a husband who just had a DNA surprise or, you know, people that are on the receiving the end of that information because you're right.

I think often times the biological fathers didn't know either, not always, but often times.

And so, how do people process that?

That's, that's a really good question and, you know, not to be self-serving but I can refer people to chapter 13 in my book, where I, where I do address that to help to help people that are in that situation, but specifically to your point and that's what's a really good.

It is, you know, you are the wife of a man who's just found out unbeknownst to him that he was that, you know, he had a child that he was unaware of the Ripple of an NP e goes out much much further.

It is not just about the MP.

It is about several families.

It's about the empty if he, or she has their own family and what the dynamic with their spouse or partner and children.

It's it's the maternal.

Side.

It's the birth certificate father's paternal side.

It's the birth mother's side.

So you've got a lot of people that are going to be impacted from this in the situation where you have a birth father birth.

Father surprised I would suggest that the wife of the birth father, consider a couple of what I would call irrefutable facts before you get into the National side of it and one irrefutable fact.

Is that your husband clearly engaged in unprotected sex either before or during your marriage?

Okay, that's that's irrefutable.

That's a fact.

Second fact, is that unprotected sex resulted in a child.

Now, oftentimes will hear of birth father's wives who talked about, you know, he didn't, he didn't know, he didn't do anything.

You know, why do we have to deal with this?

Why do we have to accept this person?

No one's saying you have to accept anybody, but you you have to accept the two basic facts that your husband had unprotected sex and it resulted in a child.

So the two people that are responsible for that hard, the birth mother and the birth father.

And at that at, that's where it all begins and end.

So hopefully, this wife of the birth, father will say, I love and support my husband.

And this is clearly a part of his life.

He was unaware of Now this is the situation and what would I want to do?

What would I want for my children?

If they were in this position?

Well I would certainly want them to have a medical history, you know, and I would certainly want to give this this adult child is npe maybe some photos or some information that would help the clarify, how they came to be at the The very least whether there's going to be a relationship or, you know, long-term friendship or whatnot.

Is really all secondary.

I think the media has done a really one-sided job of talking about reunions being this wonderful.

Amazing, you quote, unicorn and rainbows proposition for everyone.

That's involved and it is often Not, I encourage them not to be guided by fear.

I encourage them to be guided by a basic sense of what is moral to do for another human being and then whatever may or may not come from it certainly no one

knows.

I think that's great advice.

And you know, I will plug chapter 13 of your book Because as I was reading, NG the list.

I mean, first of all, you definitely hit on points that I identified with, you know, saying we hear the platitudes.

You're still, you your dad, still your dad, and those were things that I knew right off the bat.

I did not like to hear.

So you actually lists specific questions and statements that people who are supporting someone through an N PE can use.

So for anyone out there who's maybe feeling exasperated with the platitudes or Anyone out there who just isn't sure how to support someone through this.

I think those are some great guidelines.

So thank you for putting those together because, you know, people I think are often trying their best but they just don't know what to say.

They've never experienced it before and so they are just trying their best but it isn't always

helpful.

Exactly.

And you can never go wrong with the words.

I'm so sorry to hear how this has impacted you.

Yes.

One of the things that you touched on in the book is something That you know, I fegli thought about but never really considered that this was maybe a larger issue for people so beyond the change in in biological father birth, father birth parent Beyond maybe even changes in ethnicity or cultural background.

You actually talked about this desire, sometimes that people have to change their names.

Is that something that you've encountered a lot through your discussions with npes?

Yes, it is.

And it usually comes up is the beginning of a discovery when you're still when the MP is still trying to find a release and it did for me as well.

So that's why I can relate to it, it really.

But it came up as you know who am I, you know, I'm, I associated with my name.

You know, what do I do about?

My name, is it going to make me feel better to change?

My name?

Should I change my name?

Should I add it to my name?

And I really encourage people to do what is right for them and and I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all all under this.

But I've known several and Pease from who had, you know, why did variable situations and circumstances as to their npe whether they were losing an identity or they thought they were white and African-American it turned out.

They were white and Hispanic or Hispanic person turned out and found out that they were half African-American.

So they sometimes they have.

There you go.

Sometimes they wanted to change their name to reflect something.

Their new cultural and ethnic familial identity.

And I think that that's, you know, really important.

Some people get tattoos, some people find that that, you know, having that constant reminder of a symbol that is important to them is is very meaningful.

Sometimes people will create a piece of jewelry that they wear all the time.

I know that I where I've been wearing for the past four years, a Celtic cross to I recognize all of the paternal women in my family so I think it's really important.

You know, some people have chosen to add a middle name or hyphenate their last name.

And I think that if that soothes you and that is important to you, go for, it is very easy, you don't need an attorney in Most states to change your name.

If you're an adult, you have to give a reason to the court, there's a nominal fee that you pay to file the paperwork.

And you know, the judge asks you, why do you want to do this and you, you know, tell them because this is what I found out in.

This is why I wanted to do it as long as you're changing your name, for individual pure purposes and not because you want to be known as Elvis Presley.

It'll get a little B little B leave easy to

legalize.

Yeah and you do provide some resources in the book so but I just thought that was a really interesting concept.

I have spoken to Someone who had their name changed and I did think about what it would be like for me to have had a different name and that kind of thing.

I'm married now and I did change my name.

So the the urge to change.

It isn't particularly strong but I do think that it's such an interesting concept because our names are so tied to our identity.

And I think that's just another piece that maybe a lot of people don't think about

names are very much tied to our identity and I was really was kind of what I was thinking about.

I was like, well, it's okay because my birth father's last name is the same initial as my as my married name of.

Hey.

So I got, I was like, see, I kind of, I kind of got it, you know, just just got that little, that H in there.

Anyway, so it were and it all worked out for me.

Another thing that you

touch on in the book and I will admit I kind of had a reaction.

Maybe, it's because of where I still am in my journey, but you do talk quite a bit about forgiveness and forgiveness for our mothers specifically.

And I just wanted to talk with you more about that.

Why is forgiveness so important friend?

Peace.

Forgiveness is important for npes, because it impacts and and Pease life.

And I think that they're sometimes it can be very difficult for people to understand as it was for

me and

I'm in this, I'm in this group as well.

That forgiveness is something that you do for yourself.

It's not letting anybody off the hook for treating you badly.

It's not about excusing, bad behavior.

It's not about trivializing, your pain or any trauma that you've been through forgiving is an opportunity for Force for me.

As an end PE to forgive, my mother was an opportunity for me to release the anger and the hate and the negativity.

And the frustration that I would never be able to confront her with the truth.

My mother died in 2002.

Okay, if I didn't forgive my mother, all I would be doing is carrying around.

All those negative emotions that would never be resolved in my lifetime because she was already dead.

So what I try, one of my favorite quotes is from Oprah Winfrey.

And she says, just because you forgive, someone doesn't mean you have to sit down and eat macaroni and cheese with them.

And her point being in the in the humor is hurting.

Her humor is great.

Wisdom, her point is that forgiveness doesn't mean that there is no memory of what happened it.

Doesn't mean that you should be treated badly or should be abused.

That's not what forgiveness about.

And if someone or some institution has told you, it is then I would, you seek out other help and

counsel.

That's, that's a really good perspective.

I think in some ways, I wonder if if I've used maybe just a different word for forgiveness because I feel like I have released, you know, a lot of it.

But if that That word forgiveness for me is it feels powerful but I will say that Oprah is an icon and one of my heroes so she says I should forgive that maybe I should

well and again it this does not just did not happen easily or quickly or Lightly for me in my relationship with my mother who had passed.

So you know, I understand, I understand firsthand how hard that is.

I mean, I literally Considered disinterring, my mother's ashes and throwing them in a garbage heap.

I was so angry.

It was like, what can I do?

She had left me a set of china and I thought about I could throw it up.

My therapist is in a five-story building and I could get over to her building.

Pull up all this hundreds of pieces of China, took the roof and throw them all off.

And at the end of the day would that make me feel.

Feel better.

And I thought to myself, no, that wouldn't make me feel better.

Maybe in the moment and be like, oh well, there you go.

But then it does, it would still be with me.

And I'm glad that you brought this up because I've had this conversation with a couple of other folks about, you know, oh, you know, you're you're pushing your pushing and Pease to forgive their mothers and you don't know what I've gone through and you don't know about the and I, that's exactly right.

I don't know what you've gone through.

I have I've no idea what you went through in your childhood and what we went through in your adulthood, in your relationship with your mother.

What I want you to focus in on is I want you to not feel this burden and waste this energy on something that's not going to make your life better.

I want you to be whole, I want you to be happy.

I want you to have peace.

I want you to drop the baggage and if that means you never talk to her again or you disowned her, or you cut her out of your social media, or whatever, or whatever that is, you have to make that choice.

But I want you to know that there is real scientific proof here.

You know, the Mayo Clinic is not some fly-by-night organization.

They have real scientific proof about how forgiveness physically impacts us and I Want that for npes, I want them to be healthy and free and happy from this burden.

That was placed upon them that they did not deserve that.

They did nothing to but take a breath and live.

That's really powerful talking about ways that people can, you know, make themselves whole and he'll on their Journey.

You provide a plethora of resources for npe Facebook groups, the healing, Retreats, which I'm really excited to attend and other other resources.

You also provide some warning about, maybe some groups that we should be wary of.

Can you speak to what people should really be looking for as far as wedding a resource because this is all new

territory?

Sure, that's a great question and I appreciate you asking it because one of the things Things that I have found, is that wherever there is trauma?

There are people who are trying to capitalize on it, you know, we see it when hurricanes are dangerous, storms happen.

And neighborhoods are flooded with contractors who are fly-by-night, organizations, who are going to take their insurance money and then never show up.

Well, unfortunately, in with em, Is as well, there are those who start out on a path of being of providing, you know, free support and free help.

And then that morphs into hey we have been oh this event that's going to be for npes and it's not just a you know let's get together at the local chillies for, you know, an iced tea and some nachos.

It's let's all meet up on a three thousand dollar Crews.

Now certainly, if you want to spend three thousand dollars on a cruise, you know, go have a great time more power to you but to sell an event that is wrapped under a guise of this will help you to me is disingenuous.

I think anyone who has been traumatized by an N PE Discovery needs to as they would with any major trauma or change in their lives.

Take a moment or two and sit and do nothing with their finances.

The exclusion being seeking professional licensed, medical or psychological therapy and care.

I think that npes, and people who go through the Journey are are often very vulnerable to wanting to feel better that any kind word can be misconstrued as something that is sincere when it is possibly a sales pitch.

So I would definitely check out if you choose to go on to a retreat or any other type of event that you check out.

The state licenses of anyone who is supposed to be a therapist or a mental health professional.

That is, that is going to be a facilitator or a sponsor or a speaker during any type of an event and it's very easy to do every state and provinces in Canada, I'm familiar with also have this, you can check out the license of a provider very easily you go on to the State Licensing.

I'm bored of the province Licensing Board website and you put in that person's name and it will come right up and tell you that their license is current and in mental health to keep your license current whether you are a licensed social worker, whether you are a social worker, whether you are a psychologist or a psychiatrist, or mental health therapist, you must take courses every year to maintain your license.

And those courses are to update.

You on new practices, new procedures and the continuation of improvement of Health Care and mental health care for your patients.

So when you see someone who advertises themself or talks about, you know, they've been in the mental health profession, for 30 years in my name is dr.

So-and-so.

And when you search out their state license and find out that it, you know, hasn't been renewed in Jose, you know, seven eight years that tells me that this is not someone whose credentials are current.

Whose knowledge is not up to Snuff with what is going on right now with identity crisis and missed.

Attributed, parentage

clients at such a such great advice.

There are a lot of groups out there and I think you're right, when you're kind of in that.

Most just complete reactive State, you've discovered an NP or just looking for anything and I think your advice to kind of stop take a breath and do your research before contacting someone before joining a group before reaching out to Newfound family is is really sound.

So thank you for explaining

that thank you for asking the question.

It's important and people are, we're in a vulnerable position when you first find out this and that vulnerable position and Finally, in mentally lasts a while, it's not, you know, something that instantaneously goes away in a short period of time.

And I think that people want to help themselves and do the right thing.

But sometimes there are not perhaps thinking to look at just a little bit deeper, besides seeing some letters in front of or behind someone's name.

Mmm-hmm.

One of the things that you talked about in your book and I love this because I'm big on media, literacy.

That's kind of like what?

Passions is the existence of the npe in the media, kind of as a Trope or plot device.

Oh yes.

And I, to be honest, never really thought about it until I had an NP e myself.

And then all of a sudden these movies, that weren't even obvious, we're actually all about an N PE and I found myself getting kind of triggered watching certain films that I just did not.

Anticipate that being the storyline about.

And I'm not somebody that, you know, considers myself to be easily triggered.

But I've started to notice that what is the history of the npe Trope in film?

I mean, it just seems like

it's everywhere.

So, it is everywhere because it makes it makes for a human centered drama.

And it's interesting that it either causes, it does cause, drama it causes, you know, deep, A deep disturbing drama in all these storylines.

And I think it's because it's so relatable.

I thought, you know, why else would it be as prevalent in?

I don't know where it began, I'm sure.

Sure we can go back.

Well, maybe if you look just at the story of Moses, yeah, goes back that far.

Even, even even further.

And you know why was that such a popular movie.

What we want?

Why wasn't, you know, where was the concept of Of an NP e, then and npe are everywhere in our society.

And I think that the entertainment World whether it is in literature or in movies, or in television realized is that this can add drama and there's more of us out there than they think their fur is

absolutely, absolutely.

I will say, for listeners, the movie, the photograph starring Issa Rae.

Is an NP e story.

So if you're just looking for a feel-good love story and you don't want to hear about NP.

He's do not watch that even though it was a good movie, but don't watch it.

Another thing that you that you wrote about again, there's just so much information in this book is the consumer, DNA testing companies.

And how you think that they haven't really accepted an appropriate amount of accountability, for supporting NP Bees or warning people about the possibility of an end PE before they take their test.

So what are some things that you think that these companies should be

doing?

I'm so glad that you brought this up because I am on a mission to get them to add on and take on the corporate responsibility that I believe should be expected of organizations.

That are not only the size that they Our but are also capitalizing on the genetic information that we are providing to them as an example.

The two biggest DNA companies as of last week, the last time I checked currently in their glossaries, which are deep and extensive, none of them have a reference to the term non-paternity event, which is a legitimate genetic genealogy term It's not something made up, it's not something that's coming.

You know, has only been created the past few years or it's something that's in the current lexicon.

No, no.

It's been around for years and years.

They do not have in their glossaries, the, the mental health term missed attributed, parentage, and it's only been within the past couple of years that there has been any kind of a more than a couple of sentences of a warning but to find that you have to dig way down Tab, after tab, after tab to find a cursory statement that will say, you know, you might find unexpected information and I think that that's disingenuous because as we know, the DNA companies are on top of every single holiday to

promote their kits and most of them have health services now as well.

I mean, there's not a week that goes by that, I don't have at least three DNA companies.

Ask me to buy another kit, or another service that they're offering or to take their survey.

And I read all of these emails very carefully.

And none of these emails even gives you a whiff of the idea that you might find out some information, that could be disturbing.

That could be traumatic.

Even, I understand that they are public companies, and they are in the exist to make a profit for their stockholders.

I've got all that.

My question is that I would love an answer to it.

Is why don't you tell people that this is a possibility?

Why don't you send out an email when you send out the email that says, your kid has arrived, there's a perfect opportunity to Circle back and say to them.

Do you still want to do this?

Is because if this cannot

happen.

Agreed.

I mean, it definitely did not factor in for me and I didn't really see anything about it.

I know that on their Q Pages.

They put information about the accuracy of their tests, which I'm sure stems from people, like me going is this real?

Did this really happen?

Is there anyway?

It's a mistake, you know, and they have a breakdown of.

If it's a parent-child match, it's very likely that there was no mistake, you know?

And and they address those things.

So and like you said, with all of the information that they have, they've certainly got to be aware of this and it's a conscious decision.

Not.

Well, they are aware of it.

And then there's also, there's a video that's been up for several years on YouTube, with one of their genetic genealogists, kind of laughing her way through people who call up and tell us that, you know, the DNA kit is wrong and we tell them that people may be wrong and paperwork may be wrong, but DNA doesn't lie and it's all some kind of a light-hearted.

Ha ha, this can happen, you know, but I and her ER, experience, nine times out of ten, she's found it's all positive and all wonderful.

And you know, this is nothing to be concerned about.

Well, you know, I've got two million people out there that would say otherwise

Yes, thank you for touching on that.

You know, that wasn't really something I thought about either until I read the book and I am so with you on this Crusade for them to share at least a warning personally, I would also love to see them.

Share some resources for people, even if it's just Gathering all of the resources that are already created.

But to put some support behind that because it really is a traumatizing event.

When you kind of go into it thinking you're just going to find out something you kind of already know and maybe confirm some fun information.

I agree.

And there's no good in my opinion, there's no excuse for them.

Not to even just put the terms in their glossaries, I mean.

How basic is that, right?

That's to me.

He is about to me is they are culpable for their lack of accuracy by excluding those

terms.

Hmm.

Absolutely.

Is there anything else that you would like to share about and bees or your book or anything like that with the listeners?

I hope that

whoever reads my book or reads the free look inside.

That's offered on Amazon or when talking about what is in the book, But people will know that I had not only my interests at heart but the best interests of the entire npe community at heart and that I have been.

So touched and humbled, by the kind emails, and DM's and reviews that people have taken time to.

Write to me.

And as a writer, there is nothing more special to me than someone who takes the time to write something for me.

So I want to thank them for that.

And I want to assure the NP community that if there was anything that you felt was amiss that as I said, it was an honest Omission or, or error or faux pas, not wanting to do.

Do any harm but to embrace every npe regardless of their variables and their circumstances to provide them with something that they could physically hold in their hand with this book and know that they were not

alone.

Yes, that's great.

Well, I always ask everyone to questions at the end, but I feel like the this entire episode was about support and advice for NPS.

So I'll ask you one.

What advice do you have for?

Parents that are keeping in npe from their children.

My advice is to be honest with your child and trust that your child will continue to love you.

They might not like you, they might be unhappy with the truth, but one, you have the truth in a relationship.

There is the space to heal.

When you have a lie in a relationship, it is often much too difficult to ever bridge that Gap.

Well said, well said, so remind everyone where they can get your book again.

It's called npe a story guide for unexpected, DNA discoveries.

And it is by Leanne are hey, who is with us today?

It is available on Amazon and it is available on Amazon, in cat.

In the UK and in Australia and overseas, it is also available on Rakuten Kobo books and available on Apple Books.

So I hope if you are international, you will hop on Amazon, UK, Australia, or Canada.

And if you're in the state's, again, you have other is also on Amazon Barnes & Noble Nook as well.

And I would deeply appreciate if you enjoyed the book or if it was helpful to you to please leave a review so that we can together help.

More MP.

He's

thank you so much for speaking with me today Lee.

And I feel like I understand even more, this was such a great in-depth.

Look at the book.

So thank you.

Thank you Alexis, for asking me to be on your podcast.

I appreciate it.

Thanks again for coming on the podcast Leanne, we'll be back next week.

Week with the season 2 of DNA surprises.

If you have a DNA surprised that you'd like to share, please email, DNA surprises at gmail.com.

And if you haven't yet, please rate, review And subscribe to the podcast on Apple podcasts and Spotify.

Until next time.